Duncan Keith traded to Edmonton

Bigbarn27

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Sorry pass on jones. We cant be giving away assets. Some one said shiny new thing its not that , players like jones dont come available very often It got my thinking but at the end of the day . Timing just isnt right
 

HSBOB

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Diehard and Bob -- the thing about waiting for Jones is that, there is a very good chance he won't be in Columbus next year. And if he isn't, that drastically lowers the chances of the Hawks getting him. He already has a modified NTC, so I don't think he'll okay a trade to a shit team -- unless he hates it that much in Columbus. And if he does, a shit team will probably give him an offer he can't refuse. My point is, waiting a year is dangerous, if the goal is to sign him. You can't hesitate.

Getting his brother may give the Hawks a shot, but that's far from a guarantee. Ask the Chicago White Sox.

I'm not saying all this because I'm hell bent on getting Jones -- like I said, I don't think I'd do it if it costs Debrincat -- just saying, it'd be dangerous to expect he'll be available in a year. If you want him, you have to strike now.
Whether you or I are advocating for the trade or not,the one thing that comes to mind is how hard it is to acquire a #1 D-man through trade or the UFA market......expensive too. My opposition(if you could call it that)is more about the return Clbs is looking for and the timing as far as the team still being a mess with Jones.
I'm far from dead set against it though because Jones is a better D-man than some are making him out to be and if not Jones then who? When? How? and how much? I see no #1 in the system unfortunately.
 

Granada

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Whether you or I are advocating for the trade or not,the one thing that comes to mind is how hard it is to acquire a #1 D-man through trade or the UFA market......expensive too. My opposition(if you could call it that)is more about the return Clbs is looking for and the timing as far as the team still being a mess with Jones.
I'm far from dead set against it though because Jones is a better D-man than some are making him out to be and if not Jones then who? When? How? and how much? I see no #1 in the system unfortunately.

Yeah that's my worry too Bob -- I don't see anyone in our system who would ever reach Jones' status. Boqvist's trajectory/ceiling is offensive d-man; Mitchell and Beaudin, who I both like, may become solid defenders but it's hard to envision them being #1 d-men who can carry a partner. I know people are downplaying Jones, but make no mistake, the guy is a bonafide #1. I'm not going to lose sleep either way, but if we did get Jones, I'd be perfectly fine, assuming it doesn't cost us Debrincat or Hagel.

Kotl mentioned it's not the right time. That's a fair argument, but then again, when is the right time? How long are we/Bowman planning on sucking for? 2 years? 4 years? 8 years? If anything, you're going to need at least one solid d-man to teach these kids on the ice -- and Murphy certainly isn't it. Also, I don't necessarily see the harm in having a piece like Jones locked-in before you really need him.
 

LordKOTL

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Yeah that's my worry too Bob -- I don't see anyone in our system who would ever reach Jones' status. Boqvist's trajectory/ceiling is offensive d-man; Mitchell and Beaudin, who I both like, may become solid defenders but it's hard to envision them being #1 d-men who can carry a partner. I know people are downplaying Jones, but make no mistake, the guy is a bonafide #1. I'm not going to lose sleep either way, but if we did get Jones, I'd be perfectly fine, assuming it doesn't cost us Debrincat or Hagel.

Kotl mentioned it's not the right time. That's a fair argument, but then again, when is the right time? How long are we/Bowman planning on sucking for? 2 years? 4 years? 8 years? If anything, you're going to need at least one solid d-man to teach these kids on the ice -- and Murphy certainly isn't it. Also, I don't necessarily see the harm in having a piece like Jones locked-in before you really need him.
That's the very real problem, and the problem has layers.

To teach the kids on the ice you don't need a top d-man, you need a solid D-man. Sopel was solid, but not top. Spacek was solid, but not top. Now, that's not to say a Jones wouldn't be valuable, but I think beyond him there is just so little talent by the time we'd acquire enough talent for a good push (since we can't get everyone via FA--it's too expensive), Jones would be so old that he couldn't be *the* guy, and we'd be banking on one of his proteges to take over the top slot. How well did that work for Seabrook and Keith? They're gone and no one in the system is remotely ready to be in the top-3 D-slots on the team.

If we are effectively swapping Jones for Keith, you're getting equal or better output from the D overall taking into account Keith's skill+ age and comparing Jones' skill+age, but not enough to really push the team far forward. Jones can't go at a 40+ minute clip each game because everyone else is as useful as a cock-flavored lollipop. Thus, the team is still effectively stuck in limbo--like 8-18 overall in the league. Essentially mid-round picks. Given that the *only* player we have that is on the right side of 30 and is considered money is Debrincat (the rest of the good FWDs plus Lankienen are not proven on multiple seasons, hopefully yet). Playing with what we got now vs. with Jones could be the difference between some high picks, and middling picks. If Debrincat is what gets you jones you're robbing Peter to pay Paul. Maybe the loss of the O is enough to get us into the cellar, but we still got Kane, Toews might be coming back so we can actually win a fucking faceoff (hyperbole intended), and the kids up front might perform well, effectively making the O drop-off virtually moot.

To address the rest of the cup-winning core, IMHO like Keith & Seabrook they've earned the right to stay or go. If Toews and Kane want to stay--fine, but as long as they are only deployed commensurate with their production, and if their production drops they have the understand their role is more of a mentor, not a driver. If they want to go the 'hawks should accommodate them much like Keith.

Overall I just feel like the 'hawks have to really suck for a season or two and get some of the high picks--this should also have the fringe benefit of getting Stan fired--or at least percussively sublimated. If Stan is going to try to go for it, or if the Alrich situation gets worse that can hasten that. They then need to let their picks develop and not rush them (how long between Keith's draft and when he stepped on the ice?) and do a complete rebuild--with or without Stan. Right now I think Jones just kicks the can down the road. IMHO it would have been like signing Brian Campbell back in 2005-2006. It certainly wouldn't have hurt the development of Keith & Seabrook, but he might have been good enough to make it so we miss out on Toews and Kane in the draft.
 

MassHavoc

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That's the very real problem, and the problem has layers.

To teach the kids on the ice you don't need a top d-man, you need a solid D-man. Sopel was solid, but not top. Spacek was solid, but not top. Now, that's not to say a Jones wouldn't be valuable, but I think beyond him there is just so little talent by the time we'd acquire enough talent for a good push (since we can't get everyone via FA--it's too expensive), Jones would be so old that he couldn't be *the* guy, and we'd be banking on one of his proteges to take over the top slot. How well did that work for Seabrook and Keith? They're gone and no one in the system is remotely ready to be in the top-3 D-slots on the team.

If we are effectively swapping Jones for Keith, you're getting equal or better output from the D overall taking into account Keith's skill+ age and comparing Jones' skill+age, but not enough to really push the team far forward. Jones can't go at a 40+ minute clip each game because everyone else is as useful as a cock-flavored lollipop. Thus, the team is still effectively stuck in limbo--like 8-18 overall in the league. Essentially mid-round picks. Given that the *only* player we have that is on the right side of 30 and is considered money is Debrincat (the rest of the good FWDs plus Lankienen are not proven on multiple seasons, hopefully yet). Playing with what we got now vs. with Jones could be the difference between some high picks, and middling picks. If Debrincat is what gets you jones you're robbing Peter to pay Paul. Maybe the loss of the O is enough to get us into the cellar, but we still got Kane, Toews might be coming back so we can actually win a fucking faceoff (hyperbole intended), and the kids up front might perform well, effectively making the O drop-off virtually moot.

To address the rest of the cup-winning core, IMHO like Keith & Seabrook they've earned the right to stay or go. If Toews and Kane want to stay--fine, but as long as they are only deployed commensurate with their production, and if their production drops they have the understand their role is more of a mentor, not a driver. If they want to go the 'hawks should accommodate them much like Keith.

Overall I just feel like the 'hawks have to really suck for a season or two and get some of the high picks--this should also have the fringe benefit of getting Stan fired--or at least percussively sublimated. If Stan is going to try to go for it, or if the Alrich situation gets worse that can hasten that. They then need to let their picks develop and not rush them (how long between Keith's draft and when he stepped on the ice?) and do a complete rebuild--with or without Stan. Right now I think Jones just kicks the can down the road. IMHO it would have been like signing Brian Campbell back in 2005-2006. It certainly wouldn't have hurt the development of Keith & Seabrook, but he might have been good enough to make it so we miss out on Toews and Kane in the draft.
So who is our pick at 12(11) on Thursday?
 

Raskolnikov

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Sorry pass on jones. We cant be giving away assets. Some one said shiny new thing its not that , players like jones dont come available very often It got my thinking but at the end of the day . Timing just isnt right
I think our best play is to let him hit free agency while the Hawks tank in 2021-22.

We can add defense this year according to Martini. And Jones for 2023 if his brother can talk him into hitting free agency, we should have a decent chance to be on the short list and gain an audience.
 

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