I am all in on rebuild

Zvbxrpl

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And before you say, “Correa doesn’t play 3B!” It’s not uncommon for SS’s to move to 3B at some point in their careers
Hate to burst your bubble, but I never planned to say this. Transitioning SS to 3B isn't unheard of.

Suggesting SS being able to play 5-6 other spots defensively when he never has been anything more than a SS or DH--going on 7 years in the league is.

And FWIW--I'm perfectly fine with Correa at SS and 3B down the line. Won't complain there.

i wouldn’t use Baez as your comp on this. Aside from SS, baez did play significant time at 2B and 3B. The reason he never competed for gold gloves at those positions is because he never played enough at any one position during that time. You know this…to use Baez as an example of a guy that “just” plays SS is a really bad one
You chose context poorly here, but I'm not surprised given a half-assed, contrarian response. This was in direct response to the suggestion by JP that Correa can play 5-6 other positions other than SS. Baez can only do 2 and you kindly point that out. Believe that isn't 5-6, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, feel free to narrow the lens to fit an argument against a point I never made.

I really believe that this is a gas tank issue right now. Guy pitches 20 games peak and under the knife etc. All of a sudden he is absorbing innings that he has never done before. His arm will buckle from that and the sox shutting him down was the right thing.

Now I will make a diffrent take on this.

How many total inning does he have?
How many innings on a pitchers arm do you normally see a velocity drop?

I havent checked into it myself but those injuries migh be a blessing. There is a long list of pitchers that have to reinvent themselves after losing 8MPH. like hammer main pitch like Kershaw and others.

That should be taken into concideration if his medicals come back clean. His arm has low miles.
So I don't disagree with questions, and feel 'total innings' does matter. His 646 career innings through 7 years is an argument to make for signing him, but I'd caution context and would add his time at NC State because they rode his arm like a prize horse. 345 2/3 innings in 3 years as a starter at NCSt.

Is this guy worth 27.5 mil (your number) per year based on the entire body of work from 2015-now? One thing's I'm certain of, he will be a cub if they offered him that number because I doubt he's going to get that elsewhere. He's a career-best at a lot of things this year--a "prove it" year after 6 years of inconsistency. It screams "fools gold" to me.

If I'm dropping that money on a pitcher to try and bounce back into contention--and this is a stretch because we don't know his present off-field situation--its Trevor Bauer. He immediately becomes your impact TOR ace. You know what you're getting in him as opposed to Rodon. If you sign Rodon, right now he'd be #2 behind Hendricks, and if you're looking through the lens of "win the NL Central" than KH, Rodon, and Davies isn't a half-bad 1-3.

But if you're trying to beat San Diego and LA--the teams likely to run into next years postseason if you're dropping big $ to bounce back/lite rebuild, Hendricks/Rodon/Davies doesn't beat either of them.
 
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TL1961

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Shoot Cruz at 41 is a better hitter than most of MLB. Just saying. Age is a state of mind. I was in my best shape in my lower 40's. 50's now and still hit the gym. Joints ache more but W/E.
Age is not a state of mind. 41 year olds playing well is the exception not the rule!

You mention Cruz. How about Lester? Arietta? Pujols?

Many people are in better shape in their 40’s or 50’s than earlier. None of them were professional athletes who are in shape at that earlier age.
 

TL1961

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Hate to burst your bubble, but I never planned to say this. Transitioning SS to 3B isn't unheard of.

Suggesting SS being able to play 5-6 other spots defensively when he never has been anything more than a SS or DH--going on 7 years in the league is.

And FWIW--I'm perfectly fine with Correa at SS and 3B down the line. Won't complain there.


You chose context poorly here, but I'm not surprised given a half-assed, contrarian response. This was in direct response to the suggestion by JP that Correa can play 5-6 other positions other than SS. Baez can only do 2 and you kindly point that out. Believe that isn't 5-6, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, feel free to narrow the lens to fit an argument against a point I never made.


So I don't disagree with questions, and feel 'total innings' does matter. His 646 career innings through 7 years is an argument to make for signing him, but I'd caution context and would add his time at NC State because they rode his arm like a prize horse. 345 2/3 innings in 3 years as a starter at NCSt.

Is this guy worth 27.5 mil (your number) per year based on the entire body of work from 2015-now? One thing's I'm certain of, he will be a cub if they offered him that number because I doubt he's going to get that elsewhere. He's a career-best at a lot of things this year--a "prove it" year after 6 years of inconsistency. It screams "fools gold" to me.

If I'm dropping that money on a pitcher to try and bounce back into contention--and this is a stretch because we don't know his present off-field situation--its Trevor Bauer. He immediately becomes your impact TOR ace. You know what you're getting in him as opposed to Rodon. If you sign Rodon, right now he'd be #2 behind Hendricks, and if you're looking through the lens of "win the NL Central" than KH, Rodon, and Davies isn't a half-bad 1-3.

But if you're trying to beat San Diego and LA--the teams likely to run into next years postseason if you're dropping big $ to bounce back/lite rebuild, Hendricks/Rodon/Davies doesn't beat either of them.
Trevor Bauer is toxic and also a product of sticky stuff creating spin.

It would be insane to get involved with that guy.
 

CSF77

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Trevor Bauer is toxic and also a product of sticky stuff creating spin.

It would be insane to get involved with that guy.

I like his baseball related stuff. His breakdowns of pitch sequencing is strong and a solid tool for young pitchers to learn the craft.

That said. He is cancer if the alagations are true. I really have not delved into the story. I've heard aspxiation requested and he thought he could do it and didnt have a clue what he was doing and caused her to pass out.

Kink is good but stick with a pro if that is your cup.
 

CSF77

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Lawyers told The Times last week that in this case, obtaining a conviction could be hard because the woman returned for a second sexual encounter, and because of text messages released by Bauer’s camp showing the woman encouraging rough sex. The bar for guilt in a criminal court is proof beyond reasonable doubt, and while a “he said, she said” case might find Bauer guilty in the court of public opinion, that will be much harder in a courtroom. The district attorney’s office could also hesitate to prosecute a high-profile case it may not win.


So this might get thrown out TBH.

It sounds like I said. She likes it rough. They were together 2 times. Not one. She wanted to amp it up the 2nd time and wanted choking. She sounds like a Brazzers addict IMO. And with the result he is no porn star trained on how to not kill someone.

So most likely she wakes up brused. And now is going for the pay off from a millionare.

Welcome to Hollywood baby.
 

CSF77

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Age is not a state of mind. 41 year olds playing well is the exception not the rule!

You mention Cruz. How about Lester? Arietta? Pujols?

Many people are in better shape in their 40’s or 50’s than earlier. None of them were professional athletes who are in shape at that earlier age.

Pujos has some real age questions going on.

Jake was not a age thing. As far as physical condition few can match him. He lost velocity at a younger age. Never got it back. All you can say.

Lester was miles on his arm. Not age. Zambrano lost it early also. But he started at 19 and his arm was abused.

As far as pitching goes it is about use over age. Even though there are a few freeks out there lije Ryan and Verlander that kept it to the end.

Age has more to do with recovery time. When I started power lifting at 42 I had to give 72+ hrs rest. On a non heavy day I would do some lite iso or natural exercise. This time around I stick to cables more. I don't do much barbell work. Dumbells I will use because it is more free range and not a fixed movement. Weight really don't matter as I'm just going to fail and giving that group a week to recover then target the next area.

But at this age Ive dealt with impingments to tbe wrist and elbow. S1 bulge. Have to do core work to keep it up. So for the most part i was in physical therapy and doing the exercises . Now chriopractor doing back cracks. The keeping my body in shape to do the job everyday.

Strength wise I would stomp on my old self. Even the post bootcamp. I could run for ever and do sit ups etc but as far a strength nowhere close.
 

CSF77

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And the term age is a state of mind comes from this.

You can allow age to run you over. Not give a crap and give your Doc nightmares if you even go to one.

Or you can go to battle with age. The human body is pretty amazing and it will adapt to the load that you put on it. Sure it will over load but given time and a solid program that targets diet and over all health age can be reveresed in most cases.

I watched my high school buddy die at 48 a few years back. At that time I was power lifting and eating a high animal protien diet. My wife and I decided to go veg at that point. 2 years ago vegan. Never looked back and far healthier now.

Each their own. I made a choice to not let it go to shit.
 

CSF77

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Schwindell is starting to grow on me. I hope it is not contagious.

But in all seriousness flashed decent leather. Little pop and for some reason hitting .310 right now. I will give it time like I did to Wisdom and Ortega but short opinion is not a bad player. Good skill set.
 

Zvbxrpl

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So this might get thrown out TBH.
Trevor Bauer is toxic and also a product of sticky stuff creating spin.

It would be insane to get involved with that guy.
I like his baseball related stuff. His breakdowns of pitch sequencing is strong and a solid tool for young pitchers to learn the craft.
Sorry to clump this all together/jump around but I'll start with CSF77--

We disagreed earlier in the thread about rebuild 3-5 years versus your belief the cubs can add/have up to 180 mil in payroll. Let's say I'm wrong--you're right and Jed's got a green light to spend, spend, spend this winter and let's say your first point/this case against Bauer is thrown out/settled without repercussions other than frowns from idiots in the court of public opinion.

How is Bauer not at the top of the list if you're trying to bounce back? He's not Kershaw/Verlander in age, and if you're thinking 27.5 mil on Rodon, why not fork over a couple extra per year short term to get someone who's a known/proven commodity? Again, if it gets thrown out/settled and swept under rug with no charges/basically his suspension if MLB gives him one--is happening now that he's constantly "on leave."

With the bad optics, is he getting 30+ a year? Does his price tag go down? Go up because he's well-rested not pitching since what, June?

To TL--agreed on sticky stuff to a point, which is why I added CSF's 2nd point. I don't care that he can come off as a prick sometimes, to each their own/I like that about him. If I thought he was a few marbles short like Milton Bradley, I wouldn't advocate for him.

He's a wealth of knowledge and a highly intelligent strategist when you watch him break down pitching sequences, so if someone can reinvent their style (which probably has to happen anyway because he's 30 going on 31 and a lot of pitchers reinvent themselves about this age) he's a good gamble. I'd argue a better gamble than thinking Rodon will pitch like 2021 and not 2015-2020 for the next 3+ years when he's healthy.
 

CSF77

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Sorry to clump this all together/jump around but I'll start with CSF77--

We disagreed earlier in the thread about rebuild 3-5 years versus your belief the cubs can add/have up to 180 mil in payroll. Let's say I'm wrong--you're right and Jed's got a green light to spend, spend, spend this winter and let's say your first point/this case against Bauer is thrown out/settled without repercussions other than frowns from idiots in the court of public opinion.

How is Bauer not at the top of the list if you're trying to bounce back? He's not Kershaw/Verlander in age, and if you're thinking 27.5 mil on Rodon, why not fork over a couple extra per year short term to get someone who's a known/proven commodity? Again, if it gets thrown out/settled and swept under rug with no charges/basically his suspension if MLB gives him one--is happening now that he's constantly "on leave."

With the bad optics, is he getting 30+ a year? Does his price tag go down? Go up because he's well-rested not pitching since what, June?

To TL--agreed on sticky stuff to a point, which is why I added CSF's 2nd point. I don't care that he can come off as a prick sometimes, to each their own/I like that about him. If I thought he was a few marbles short like Milton Bradley, I wouldn't advocate for him.

He's a wealth of knowledge and a highly intelligent strategist when you watch him break down pitching sequences, so if someone can reinvent their style (which probably has to happen anyway because he's 30 going on 31 and a lot of pitchers reinvent themselves about this age) he's a good gamble. I'd argue a better gamble than thinking Rodon will pitch like 2021 and not 2015-2020 for the next 3+ years when he's healthy.

I really dont have a opinion on him TBH.

I like his stuff on you tube. Some of it is crap but when he pulls the light pen out it is very good.

As far as a talent. The numbers speak for them selves.

As far as his off the field stuff?

That is where it lies. We saw how the fans lit up Milton Bradley. We might see worse if he signed a deal.

The article pretty much layed it out. He is better off sitting on it and letting the commish and the union deal with it. Let time blow over and then hit a small market that keeps him out of the limelight.

It really dont matter. People will attack him regardless because of dislike. Tom shoukd keep that at a distance.

But in a vaccume? Ya my #1 target.
 

CSF77

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IMO he should sign with the Rangers. Get a few under his belt. Do some contributions back to society. Kill the tube. I think he screwed himself and it might get ugly.
 

TL1961

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Pujos has some real age questions going on.

Jake was not a age thing. As far as physical condition few can match him. He lost velocity at a younger age. Never got it back. All you can say.

Lester was miles on his arm. Not age. Zambrano lost it early also. But he started at 19 and his arm was abused.

As far as pitching goes it is about use over age. Even though there are a few freeks out there lije Ryan and Verlander that kept it to the end.

Age has more to do with recovery time. When I started power lifting at 42 I had to give 72+ hrs rest. On a non heavy day I would do some lite iso or natural exercise. This time around I stick to cables more. I don't do much barbell work. Dumbells I will use because it is more free range and not a fixed movement. Weight really don't matter as I'm just going to fail and giving that group a week to recover then target the next area.

But at this age Ive dealt with impingments to tbe wrist and elbow. S1 bulge. Have to do core work to keep it up. So for the most part i was in physical therapy and doing the exercises . Now chriopractor doing back cracks. The keeping my body in shape to do the job everyday.

Strength wise I would stomp on my old self. Even the post bootcamp. I could run for ever and do sit ups etc but as far a strength nowhere close.
Verlander didn't "keep it to the end". He dropped off significantly, then Voila! found mahgic in Houston, home of the cheating and suddenly his spin rate increased dramatically.

Lester wasn't age, it was use? That's the point!

Do you think the Cubs are just going to find The Natural? A 38 year old with no mileage on him?
 

CSF77

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Verlander didn't "keep it to the end". He dropped off significantly, then Voila! found mahgic in Houston, home of the cheating and suddenly his spin rate increased dramatically.

Lester wasn't age, it was use? That's the point!

Do you think the Cubs are just going to find The Natural? A 38 year old with no mileage on him?

His last year in Detroit he was pounding 98. He had little luck. Im not going to argue the goo because that is more about grip. I doubt adding spin rates will take a 92-95 and make it sing at 98.

The whole point is people make a big deal about signing a guy until he is pushing 40. That list shows that players are playing from 37-41.

Enuf said on the subject. It was never intended to get all this back fire on a simple fact.
 

CSF77

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On spin rates. It is over played. We had a guy that peep would gush over his spins. Did good in 16. Then traded for Wieck. Because spin rate or not. Sucks just sucks. Pads booted him. Who knows if he is even playing still.

Regardless it is over hyped. The rosin sweat ball was also banned and Glass blames MLB for wrecking his arm due to the last minuet ban.

Hopefully in the next CBA this stuff will be cleaned out.

I am all about DH both leagues.

Raise the mound to 1960's levels.

Head shots are auto ejects. If you go in you need to have command.

Legal forms of grip implemented. Rosin is fine. Sweat happens and a slick ball can cause injury. IE head shots.

The strike zone part. That one is a bit messy. Makes the home plate ump a wallflower. Making it video I am mixed on it. Maybe a challenge on balls and strikes. Umos need to be deflated a bit on that. Should not be a toss out when the ump blew it.
 

dchawks59

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Not watching. Ill check in here and there. Checked on Steel and he had a bump in his 2nd time through the brewers line up.

Ortega is just a pro and looking like the missing lead off.

Pen sucks ass. What happens when you drop 3 studds.

Wick came back and pitched a clean.

So I am looking at what affects 2022 vs wins. Fuck wins anyways. I deem that younger players getting the work in more important.
Pen got help today, they brought up Megill and his 12.48ERA, can't wait to see him actually get some outs. This team is in full Re-Build, nothing lite about it for 2022 and 2023 "might" be slightly better. If they think a couple of FA's will help they are seriously wrong. Interesting to see speculative lineups with Castellanos in them, believe he played for Cubs and they decided he was not worth a contract offer. Now why would that guy want to come back to the Cubs unless he was going to get huge dollars and did not care about winning anything for 2-3 years min.
 

CSF77

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Well today they almost fucked it up and won.

But good ole Alacantea booted 3 balls to make sure to keep on trucking to a top 8 pick.

Pretty amazing seeing 5 unearned runs in 1 game.

Hats off to these hard working scrubs.
 

CSF77

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Pen got help today, they brought up Megill and his 12.48ERA, can't wait to see him actually get some outs. This team is in full Re-Build, nothing lite about it for 2022 and 2023 "might" be slightly better. If they think a couple of FA's will help they are seriously wrong. Interesting to see speculative lineups with Castellanos in them, believe he played for Cubs and they decided he was not worth a contract offer. Now why would that guy want to come back to the Cubs unless he was going to get huge dollars and did not care about winning anything for 2-3 years min.

It would take more than Nick.

If you wanted to build it lite.

Ortega CF
Madrigal 2B
F/A LH Hitter (replace Happ)
Schwindel 1B
F/A LH Hitter (replace Heyward)
Wisdom 3B
Contreras C
Hoerner SS

Bats Confroto would be a good choice as his value is low.

Eddie Rosario. Cheap LH LF. Don't invest heavy with Davis pending.

Rotation

Keep internal. They have 5 arms right now with another pending.

Bolster the pen. Wick seems solid in his return. Hauer is underwhelming. Non save pitcher. 2 set ups. Lose Brothers.

Having a pen that shuts the doors makes it easier to win games. The core issues were the jekyle and Hyde rotation and the lack of a small ball line up.

That line up IMO will score enough. As long as the pen is solid they would sit around 86 wins maybe more if Davis comes up strong and Controrto rebounds.

Not to mention the investment would be around 50M vs 120+.
 

CSF77

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What I feel that He's will do:

1, Invest into the pen. That has been his go-to. Add 2 vets to stabilize. Then use youth on a rotation to keep arms fresh. He will also sign split deals. This has been his method and I see little change

I honestly don't expect much else. Thompson replaces Davies. He will have Kilian and Marquez pending. He most likely does nothing here.

Line up. Hoerner and Madrigal stabilize the middle. Wisdom and Schwindel have shown enough as cheap options. Market is meh there anyways. Ortega has proven to be a solid lead off.

So it comes down to Happ, Heyward, Deichmann and when Davis gets up. Ideally you target a LH bat but I can see Jed holding the deck. Let Deichmann develop. Heyward stabilizes RF until Davis gets up. Happ trade bait for BP depth.

Too much swing and miss to go forward with.
 

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