IST: Cubs vs Pirates

CSF77

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Highly favored White Sox are 1-3. The Cardinals are 1-2

Season is over!
I'm more intrigued with Williams and Alozay this year than any records. Last year was a semi break out for Williams and it continued this spring. Alozay is a ball of potential that has TOR written all over it.

But yes calling the season after the end of a series is absurd.
 

Chicagosports89

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I'm more intrigued with Williams and Alozay this year than any records. Last year was a semi break out for Williams and it continued this spring. Alozay is a ball of potential that has TOR written all over it.

But yes calling the season after the end of a series is absurd.
Are you talking about Trevor Williams? He was absolutely terrible the last two years. They are hoping for a bounce back year.

Also ALZOLAY has really never shown the potential to be TOR. He would need to reach a whole new level to get there. In fact what he has shown is that we'd be lucky to get a solid BOR arm out of him
 

CSF77

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Are you talking about Trevor Williams? He was absolutely terrible the last two years. They are hoping for a bounce back year.

Also ALZOLAY has really never shown the potential to be TOR. He would need to reach a whole new level to get there. In fact what he has shown is that we'd be lucky to get a solid BOR arm out of him

Part 1.

2019 was a known juiced ball issue. You opinion is flawed by that fact alone.

2020 was a toss out year. Basing anything off a year like that is jaded by nature.

2018 should be a baseline goal for him. The main stat is 15 HR in 170 IP. He gave up 27 in 145 IP in the juiced ball 2019.

Alozay have been a fringe top 100 talent even before he added a sharp slider. But let's be real for a second here. How many TOR have there been that never placed in any top 100 list. More likely more of them than there were.

If anything there are more top 100 pitchers that busted than were successful.

So if you are basing you opinion on that you are flawed. If it on talent well you are also wrong because his talent is on par with other TOR.

So that just leaves time and experience. And the first part is key.
 

Chicagosports89

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Part 1.

2019 was a known juiced ball issue. You opinion is flawed by that fact alone.

2020 was a toss out year. Basing anything off a year like that is jaded by nature.

2018 should be a baseline goal for him. The main stat is 15 HR in 170 IP. He gave up 27 in 145 IP in the juiced ball 2019.

Alozay have been a fringe top 100 talent even before he added a sharp slider. But let's be real for a second here. How many TOR have there been that never placed in any top 100 list. More likely more of them than there were.

If anything there are more top 100 pitchers that busted than were successful.

So if you are basing you opinion on that you are flawed. If it on talent well you are also wrong because his talent is on par with other TOR.

So that just leaves time and experience. And the first part is key.
You said last year Williams was good, but you are considering 2018 last year?

Until Alzolay shows he can consistently go 5+ innings he's hardly even a starter in my book
 

CSF77

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Williams just shooed your comment away like a fly.

Begone bug.

Alozay is next to take a swat.

Be more concerned with Mills sucking eggs and giving up the game.
 

Chicagosports89

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Williams just shooed your comment away like a fly.

Begone bug.

Alozay is next to take a swat.

Be more concerned with Mills sucking eggs and giving up the game.
I never said Williams is not or couldn't be good. You said he was good last year. That isn't accurate and that was all I pointed out
 

CSF77

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accuracy isn’t important to him

I first stated that 2019 was a known juiced ball issue. And I posted his HR's inflated from 15-27. But this was league wide not a singular issue.

2020 is a toss out year.

So those numbers are false positive info to begin with.

What I am looking at is stuff and pitch mix. We are seeing what he is right now and that reflects to 2018. Which is the last year that baseball didn't have a major altering factor.

So why would I bother continuing on with a argument based off of data that doesn't account for MLB juicing the ball to make the game more likeable or 2 months compacted after most players were shelved and stuck in Q.

It is the same argument on why Bonds is not in the HOF. Juicing the ball or the player. Player does it is cheating. MLB does it it is not?. ..

So by nature I look at his history and he has been solid then 2019 his numbers implode but there was a juiced ball and 2020 you can't make much of it and anything from that year is worth a grain of salt.
 
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knoxville7

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I first stated that 2019 was a known juiced ball issue. And I posted his HR's inflated from 15-27. But this was league wide not a singular issue.

2020 is a toss out year.

So those numbers are false positive info to begin with.

What I am looking at is stuff and pitch mix. We are seeing what he is right now and that reflects to 2018. Which is the last year that baseball didn't have a major altering factor.

So why would I bother continuing on with a argument based off of data that doesn't account for MLB juicing the ball to make the game more likeable or 2 months compacted after most players were shelved and stuck in Q.

It is the same argument on why Bonds is not in the HOF. Juicing the ball or the player. Player does it is cheating. MLB does it it is not?. ..

So by nature I look at his history and he has been solid then 2019 his numbers implode but there was a juiced ball and 2020 you can't make much of it and anything from that year is worth a grain of salt.
what you are essentially saying is that no stats from 2019 matter because it was a juiced year. That’s absolutely dumb as fuck.

was the ball juiced a bit? Sure, why not. Does that mean if a pitcher had a bad year you just throw it out? No. Location of pitches still gets guys out no matter how “juiced” a ball is.

williams in 2019/2020 combined to throw over 200 innings. That’s not some nothing of a sample size. If anything, looking at his career numbers, 2018 is the outlier. And that’s coming from someone who was very happy to see the cubs sign the guy...as I do think he has potential as a 29 year old guy to figure it out. He has the stuff. But to act like his 2019 and 2020 don’t matter is just asinine
 

Chicagosports89

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what you are essentially saying is that no stats from 2019 matter because it was a juiced year. That’s absolutely dumb as fuck.

was the ball juiced a bit? Sure, why not. Does that mean if a pitcher had a bad year you just throw it out? No. Location of pitches still gets guys out no matter how “juiced” a ball is.

williams in 2019/2020 combined to throw over 200 innings. That’s not some nothing of a sample size. If anything, looking at his career numbers, 2018 is the outlier. And that’s coming from someone who was very happy to see the cubs sign the guy...as I do think he has potential as a 29 year old guy to figure it out. He has the stuff. But to act like his 2019 and 2020 don’t matter is just asinine
He also literally said last year was a breakout year for Williams. Last year cannot in anyway be a reference to 2018. It's incredible that he can't just say he misspoke, instead he is arguing an unarguable point. It's kind of weird to me that he appears to have some sort of complex where he can't admit to being wrong on a message board. A simple I misspoke would have been end of conversation
 

CSF77

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what you are essentially saying is that no stats from 2019 matter because it was a juiced year. That’s absolutely dumb as fuck.

was the ball juiced a bit? Sure, why not. Does that mean if a pitcher had a bad year you just throw it out? No. Location of pitches still gets guys out no matter how “juiced” a ball is.

williams in 2019/2020 combined to throw over 200 innings. That’s not some nothing of a sample size. If anything, looking at his career numbers, 2018 is the outlier. And that’s coming from someone who was very happy to see the cubs sign the guy...as I do think he has potential as a 29 year old guy to figure it out. He has the stuff. But to act like his 2019 and 2020 don’t matter is just asinine

No what I said is that 2019 is false positive info.

It is the same as 1998 with the league roiding up.

Or in 1968 when MLB lowered to mound.

Or the pre dead ball era.

Every one of these situations there was a altering factor that affected the league as a whole.

Again I pointed to his HR's given up. 15 in 2018 and 27 in 2019.

The league averaged 1.39 home runs per game in the 2019 regular season, by far the highest rate in MLB history.Oct 1, 2019

So yes it affected all pitchers in baseball that year.

Could you toss out that info. Sure why not? What MLB did is give an unfair advantage to the hitters with no counter balance and decided to yank it the following year because it created a unfair advantage to the hitters.

Why would you include skewed data into a argument?

There is a reason why MLB has blocked roid era players from entering. The production was enhanced. Why was the juiced ball removed after 2019? Because the hitters might as well have been on roids with that end result.

But it was worse because the pitchers were roiding also. 2019 was advantage hitter.
.
 

knoxville7

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No what I said is that 2019 is false positive info.

It is the same as 1998 with the league roiding up.

Or in 1968 when MLB lowered to mound.

Or the pre dead ball era.

Every one of these situations there was a altering factor that affected the league as a whole.

Again I pointed to his HR's given up. 15 in 2018 and 27 in 2019.

The league averaged 1.39 home runs per game in the 2019 regular season, by far the highest rate in MLB history.Oct 1, 2019

So yes it affected all pitchers in baseball that year.

Could you toss out that info. Sure why not? What MLB did is give an unfair advantage to the hitters with no counter balance and decided to yank it the following year because it created a unfair advantage to the hitters.

Why would you include skewed data into a argument?

There is a reason why MLB has blocked roid era players from entering. The production was enhanced. Why was the juiced ball removed after 2019? Because the hitters might as well have been on roids with that end result.

But it was worse because the pitchers were roiding also. 2019 was advantage hitter.
.
im sure guys like verlander, cole, degrom, etc also agree to not look at their 2019 numbers 🙄 you act as though there was no good pitching that season, when in fact there was. The good pitchers remained good pitchers. Average to below avg guys got shelled. Guess which category Williams belongs in?

williams is 29 and has one mlb season of a sub 4 ERA. 2018 is more the outlier if you’re looking at his career
 

Chicagosports89

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im sure guys like verlander, cole, degrom, etc also agree to not look at their 2019 numbers 🙄 you act as though there was no good pitching that season, when in fact there was. The good pitchers remained good pitchers. Average to below avg guys got shelled. Guess which category Williams belongs in?

williams is 29 and has one mlb season of a sub 4 ERA. 2018 is more the outlier if you’re looking at his career
I think you could tell him the sun is hot and he would respond about the balls being juiced in 2019 and Williams therefore is really good. He seems to be stuck in one gear.
 

CSF77

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im sure guys like verlander, cole, degrom, etc also agree to not look at their 2019 numbers 🙄 you act as though there was no good pitching that season, when in fact there was. The good pitchers remained good pitchers. Average to below avg guys got shelled. Guess which category Williams belongs in?

williams is 29 and has one mlb season of a sub 4 ERA. 2018 is more the outlier if you’re looking at his career
Maybe. But you are taking the 1% and comparing with MOR to back of the rotation guys.

I wouldn't have even brought up the argument except MLB back peddled the year after. The last major change was 1968 and that stuck. So this was a experiment that went wrong.
 

CSF77

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Accually there is a new development on this subject.

MLB is now wanting to grab baseballs off of 'suspect' pitchers. Then analyzing if any substance is used on it.

The problem is hitters use pine tar.

Catchers and position players have no rule on using or not using a grip adder on their mit. Only pitchers.

So this is a whole new issue going on to combat the increase of spin rates.

Not to mention,. Who is a suspect? The guy who sucks at hiding? But the guy who is good at adding is safe?

So there are many holes to what MLB is attempting to do this year.
 

Chicagosports89

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Accually there is a new development on this subject.

MLB is now wanting to grab baseballs off of 'suspect' pitchers. Then analyzing if any substance is used on it.

The problem is hitters use pine tar.

Catchers and position players have no rule on using or not using a grip adder on their mit. Only pitchers.

So this is a whole new issue going on to combat the increase of spin rates.

Not to mention,. Who is a suspect? The guy who sucks at hiding? But the guy who is good at adding is safe?

So there are many holes to what MLB is attempting to do this year.
This discussion is expanding way beyond Williams not in fact being good last year or the year before or Alzolay being able to pitch 5 innings.
 

CSF77

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This discussion is expanding way beyond Williams not in fact being good last year or the year before or Alzolay being able to pitch 5 innings.

We will see how Alozay progresses.

But it factors. If a pitcher normally spins 2400 with a 4 and avg 94 MPH then all of a sudden his avg spin goes to 2900 and now it is sitting at 98 MLB is going to look at this player now. We can take Cole or Verlander in this case. Both added RPM after going to Houston. Cole's case added millions. Was there substance involved? Maybe. Houston proved to lack integrity and this could be something MLB is targeting right now.

I look at Bauer and he excelled in 2020 by gaining command. Not velocity. So I doubt that he is suspect. deGromm? Maybe. He is pumping 98+ now and was not that guy early in his career. Suspect sure. Cole yep. Verlander adding MPH in his decline... Yep suspect.

All I am saying is there is more going on outside of the box score and basing a opinion on numbers alone is to be honest a outsiders view point and has little to do with what is going on in the game.

Just like how many MLB hitters suffered after the removal of in game video. Tech is a part of the game and players are brought up utilizing it. You take it away it affected the league.
 

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