James Jones: Chicago Bears 'Super Bowl contenders' with quarterback Derek Carr

fx1718

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You seem to be part of the It's All Mitch's Fault Club for Men.

I seem to have to qualify everything unless I completely blame Trubisky for everything....

So I'll say everything I've said in a few sentences....




Trubisky performs better when he has run support, much better....

The Bears run game is one of the worst in the league....

Defenses did very little to respect the run and this cost the Bears, like it would most NFL teams....

Fix the run offense and you will get better QB performance....

Mitch still needs to get better at reading defenses....



.....yes it is all connected. That has been my point.
No I'm not part of that club. Shit last week the HHM and WCBF crew were calling me a "Mitch apologist".

Yes the Bears have a lot of issues. Mitch is definitely a key one of them. Fixing the issues around him may make him "serviceable" but thats not what you need for long term success. That is in the end settling for mediocrity.
 

modo

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No I'm not part of that club. Shit last week the HHM and WCBF crew were calling me a "Mitch apologist".

Yes the Bears have a lot of issues. Mitch is definitely a key one of them. Fixing the issues around him may make him "serviceable" but thats not what you need for long term success. That is in the end settling for mediocrity.

I still believe Trubisky can be a well above average QB long term. There are several key things I see him do that top QBs do......he needs to take several big steps still......this is probably the last year here for him, so he had better jump, but the Bears need to put serviceable parts around him.
 

fx1718

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I still believe Trubisky can be a well above average QB long term. There are several key things I see him do that top QBs do......he needs to take several big steps still......this is probably the last year here for him, so he had better jump, but the Bears need to put serviceable parts around him.
I guess I gave up on that first sentence last season. I think he's average at best. Which to me isn't good enough long term.
 

legendxofxlink

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With a run game like ‘19 only a handful of QBs would make a team SB contender. Carr is definitely not one of them.
 

fx1718

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With a run game like ‘19 only a handful of QBs would make a team SB contender. Carr is definitely not one of them.
OR.. with a Passing game like 19 only a handful of RB would make this team a SB contender. See how easily that can flip? ;)
 

modo

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OR.. with a Passing game like 19 only a handful of RB would make this team a SB contender. See how easily that can flip? ;)

I think the whole point of the original discussion I brought up was that Trubisky is a 95+ rated passer when the Bears can get at least get a minimal level of run support....they feed off each other....
 

fx1718

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I think the whole point of the original discussion I brought up was that Trubisky is a 95+ rated passer when the Bears can get at least get a minimal level of run support....they feed off each other....
But.. in the 2020 NFL isn't 95 the low side of average? Be good enough for what #15 last year?
 

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@modo at the risk of harassing you, which I do not intend, I felt it might be helpful for you to see why your position fails to resonate with the rest of us. Your entire premise rests on fixing run over pass as the preferable solution when it is not proven to be the only way forward nor even the ideal plan moving forward.

Every one of your points could be made flipping the argument and has just as much rationality as yours.

Trubisky performs better when he has run support, much better....

The running game performs much better when the QB needs not bother doing anything pre-snap and his first read is open, much better ...

The Bears run game is one of the worst in the league....

The Bears passing game is one of the worst in the league ...

Defenses did very little to respect the run and this cost the Bears, like it would most NFL teams....

Defenses did very little to respect the pass especially downfield and this cost the Bears, like it would most NFL teams ...

Fix the run offense and you will get better QB performance....

Fix the pass offense and you will get a better running game ...

Mitch still needs to get better at reading defenses....

The running offense still needs to get better over time sure ...

and yes all these things are connected. I agree.

But if you do agree that all these things are connected, why does picking up a better QB make no sense UNLESS the running game gets fixed? When you come with that position, it seems like you do not think they are connected, but that the offense can ONLY get better by fixing the running game.

Respectfully submitted (and not at all harassing you I swear).
 
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All it will really do is help Nagy "hide" Trubisky. Kind of like John Fox did in 2017 when Howard/Cohen rushed for just under 1500 yards.

Trubisky threw for seven TDs and the Bears had another last place finish. Sounds like a winning recipe.

#itstheQBstupid

While I do believe that Mitch would have been, & would be noticeably better, or at least effective, if Nagy had let Mitch play like he did in 2018, & Watson has played all along, by consistently using his legs to help open things up on passing downs, but the system entails pocket read consistency first, scrambling abilities second.

I want to see Mitch figure this out as bad as anyone. He was my favorite player in his entire class, & I wasnt bothered by Pace overpaying to get him. Although at the same time I didnt want to see him anywheres near the field under John Fox, or even near Fox just to develope a season of bad habits which did happen.

When Trubisky started 2018 I noticed some throwing from his back foot & across his body on the move. Two things I never remembered seeing in his NC tape. But for the start of 2018 he was suddenly committing some obvious no no's.

Nagy & Mitch did eventually hash out & unlearn the noticeably obvious to end up with what I thought was a very promising season. With Mitch basically allowed to play as a 1 to 2 read, tuck & run QB who could beat the full contain even when they knew he was running.

I was hoping that for 2019 & beyond that Nagy was going to take the same or similar approach to Mitch's development, that George Seifert took with Steve Young when he took over for Montana in 1992/93.

Unfortunately that wasnt the case, & if the offense entails a different type of QB then Mitch, then I do only think its fair to let any new HC live or die by his own hand picked QB or QB prospect.

Young looked terrible when he fist entered the league with Tampa Bay, then was traded to San Francisco & sat for a few years. When Young started his first full season, Seifert let him play 1 read tuck & run with alot of safe pass plays.

The second year though, Seifert exepected Young to now hit 2 reads consistently, before scrambling, anything more is a bonus. Then in year three Seifert expected Young to be able to process the base 3 reads of a WC with regularity, again anything more was a bonus. So on and so forth until Young could process all 5 reads with the 4 WR spread & the recieving FB/HB out of the back field. Or in the empty set.

In time Young became a QB that didnt even need to use his legs because he was developed gradually, thoroughly and properly after beginning his career as a dual threat QB who struggled going through progressions, having a good pocket instincts, & reading the defense.

If you look at Youngs production you can see the passing yards gradually incline to an efficient COMP% for that era, & the scrambling yards gradually do the opposite, especially in the tail end of his career.

Yet throughout Youngs development Seifert tailored plays around Young that worked to Youngs strenghths, as well as the surrounding personnel. They were legit contenders for more than just a post season appearance by Youngs second full season as the starter.

Basically everything that Mitch struggles with. Unlike Seifert, Nagy seemed to expect Mitch to go from 1 read tuck & run QB, to a 3 read pocket QB in one offseason with his system. Expecting the better progressions from a career pocket passing QB that would be feasible. But for young and rambunctious career tuck & run QB I was surprised with Nagy & Mitch taking an approach where the shift in play was extreme.

Id like to keep Mitch & gradually develope these traits. I would LOVE a move for Carr & I think Carr would help Mitch get it with reading the defense, mechanics, going through his progressions, & constantly having success in a short to mid range pass happy crapshoot, that sets up the deep pass.

I would love to have Carr, & find a way to keep Mitch right here where he can finally thoroughly develope behind him. Carr#1 & Mitch #2 on the depth chart would finally be a QB situation I am proud to see at BOTH QB positions.
 
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modo

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But.. in the 2020 NFL isn't 95 the low side of average? Be good enough for what #15 last year?

no

it is above average....it would put Trubisky around 12th in the league in 2019 if he could do it consistently.....

He did it in 2018, the average was a little higher.....it put him right at league average....Bears had better run support in 2018....not quite average but much better than last year.

Then the Bears moved on from Howard, and they also moved on from actually running the ball.....in 2018 they ran 45% of the time...in 2019 they ran 38% of the time.....for a team with a good defense it is perplexing....until you realize Nagy was substituting those quick out plays as run plays, which fooled exactly no one in the league....so it drags down the passer rating because Nagy made the passing game responsible for 1-3 yards ball control offense.
 

Outlaw Josey Cutler

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With a run game like ‘19 only a handful of QBs would make a team SB contender. Carr is definitely not one of them.

Very true. But I fele like Nagy handcuffed his own playcalling to try to have Mitch "step up and show us he has it". Otherwise, his coaching last year was so bad he deserves to be fired (which I would have no problem with either way for how he coached tbh).

I suspect he would not do that with Carr/ another QB Pace agrees to give him to save both their jobs.
 

fx1718

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no

it is above average....it would put Trubisky around 12th in the league in 2019 if he could do it consistently.....

He did it in 2018, the average was a little higher.....it put him right at league average....Bears had better run support in 2018....not quite average but much better than last year.

Then the Bears moved on from Howard, and they also moved on from actually running the ball.....in 2018 they ran 45% of the time...in 2019 they ran 38% of the time.....for a team with a good defense it is perplexing....until you realize Nagy was substituting those quick out plays as run plays, which fooled exactly no one in the league....so it drags down the passer rating because Nagy made the passing game responsible for 1-3 yards ball control offense.
Arron Rodgers was a 95.4 in 2019 and was #14. #15 was Wentz with a 93... How would Trubisky be #12 with a 95?
 

modo

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@modo at the risk of harassing you, which I do not intend, I felt it might be helpful for you to see why your position fails to resonate with the rest of us. Your entire premise rests on fixing run over pass as the preferable solution when it is not proven to be the only way forward nor even the ideal plan moving forward.

Every one of your points could be made flipping the argument and has just as much rationality as yours.



The running game performs much better when the QB needs not bother doing anything pre-snap and his first read is open, much better ...



The Bears passing game is one of the worst in the league ...



Defenses did very little to respect the pass especially downfield and this cost the Bears, like it would most NFL teams ...



Fix the pass offense and you will get a better running game ...



The running offense still needs to get better over time sure ...

and yes all these things are connected. I agree.

But if you do agree that all these things are connected, why does picking up a better QB make no sense UNLESS the running game gets fixed? When you come with that position, it seems like you do not think they are connected, but that the offense can ONLY get better by fixing the running game.

Respectfully submitted (and not at all harassing you I swear).

we've gone back and forth on this and we can just agree to disagree.

Even if the Bears are somehow geared up to use the pass to set up the run, the argument falls flat when you consider that Bears had little success in running against nickel and dime defense which both Montgomery faced over 50% of the time and Cohen face 75% of time....the Bears couldn't take advantage of it...
 

Outlaw Josey Cutler

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we've gone back and forth on this and we can just agree to disagree.

Even if the Bears are somehow geared up to use the pass to set up the run, the argument falls flat when you consider that Bears had little success in running against nickel and dime defense which both Montgomery faced over 50% of the time and Cohen face 75% of time....the Bears couldn't take advantage of it...

You mean Mitch couldn't take advantage of it, and it is far easier to find a QB who can take advantage of it better than Mitch can than it is to upgrade the parts and pieces that make a running game.

And I suspect that is where we will agree to disagree.
 

modo

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You mean Mitch couldn't take advantage of it, and it is far easier to find a QB who can take advantage of it better than Mitch can than it is to upgrade the parts and pieces that make a running game.

And I suspect that is where we will agree to disagree.

couldn't take advantage of what...he isn't the running back.....

I don't know to put this any simpler....the Bears could not run the ball consistently enough in ideal running situations....it hurt the offense......

Anyone who looks at the Bears run game and blames it on Trubisky when the oline gets pushed around is trying too hard to blame everything on Trubisky....Bears faced well below average men in the box vs runs and could not execute....

The entire run coaching staff was fired.....

This isn't rocket science.
 

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The Bears run game was ass.

Carr is currently a better QB than Trubisky.

Both things can be true. I see no point in bringing up the former as some sort of justification for not acquiring a better QB than Trubs.
 

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