Jon Lester

[CSF77]

Sandberg is 15th all-time in 2B fWAR and 31st in defensive score. The idea that he got into the HOF but just "not making errors" is just...wrong. Like, really wrong.

Most data from then is limited. TZ is as good as it gets as it is based off of the available data. TZL is more accurate but the data was started in 2010.

Basically +15 is GG. He did this 1 time.
+10 is great. Did this x2
+5 above avg 3x
0 avg 5x
-5 below avg 3x
-10 poor 0x
-15 Awful 1x

Most of his case was built in his complete game. He ran and had a solid glove and he defined a position as a hitting position.

He deserved the hall. But his D value was not electric

 

[JimJohnson]

But to be honest here. I question if Jon was worth his deal bit. He was paid as an ace and was #2 behind Jake. When he took over from Jake the team scuffled. Now that Yu has taken over as ace the team is strong again.

That is why I feel Yu will end up a better signing. He is paid as a 2 and pitches ace level. Jon is paid as a 1 and has been a 2.

So speaking of value regarding cash no. As in team value questionable.

Lester was worth it. Period. End of discussion.

 

[CSF77]

Lester was worth it. Period. End of discussion.

I never said that the investment was not worth it. From a leadership and stability he was worth the investment. All I ever said was he avg 2.8 fWAR over 6 years and the Cubs paid around 9 mil per WAR on that contract. Sori put up 19 fWAR over 8 years. He was dumped on for a long time for being a waste of payroll. Cubs paid 7.3 mil per point of WAR.

To be fair to say 1 was worth it and 1 was not is bias.

You notice I didn't go with Heyward. He has put up 7.7 fWAR over 5 years. That deal is looking like a bust.
Yu I posted might but life stuck it to him. Even though you hate the guy. To be fair he got shafted in the series by cheaters and that is going to wreck a players confidence. Then add a injury year 1. The important part is it is in the past.

 

[JimJohnson]

We don't win the WS without Lester. He was worth it.

 

[CSF77]

We don't win the WS without Lester. He was worth it.

Again all I have ever said was fWAR to contract is not that great in value. All of the other stuff for sure was worth it.

But all things concerned 2016 shouldn't be the only justification for any player. Maybe for Cubs fans because of the team's history.

To be fair Theo did some crap deals like trade away Cease and Eloy to try and save a busted year. That was a poor choice. Trading for 2016 was worth it because the Cubs were the team to beat that year. 2017 they were trying to save the year with a under performing team.

It has little to do with Lester but if he was pitching at 4-5 fWAR per year they could have aimed lower and sent away lower ended prospects and held on to their top 100.

 

[Castor76]

Again all I have ever said was fWAR to contract is not that great in value. All of the other stuff for sure was worth it.

But all things concerned 2016 shouldn't be the only justification for any player. Maybe for Cubs fans because of the team's history.

To be fair Theo did some crap deals like trade away Cease and Eloy to try and save a busted year. That was a poor choice. Trading for 2016 was worth it because the Cubs were the team to beat that year. 2017 they were trying to save the year with a under performing team.

It has little to do with Lester but if he was pitching at 4-5 fWAR per year they could have aimed lower and sent away lower ended prospects and held on to their top 100.

The idea that giving up Eloy and Cease for Q in 2017 was wrong, is ludicrous. The Cubs staff was floundering. Q wound up being the shot in the arm and the team got back to the NLCS. Cease and Jimenez didn't break into the majors until 2019.

And fWAR is a great acronym, because f WAR as a stat.

 

[JimJohnson]

The idea that giving up Eloy and Cease for Q in 2017 was wrong, is ludicrous. The Cubs staff was floundering. Q wound up being the shot in the arm and the team got back to the NLCS. Cease and Jimenez didn't break into the majors until 2019.

And fWAR is a great acronym, because f WAR as a stat.

Disagree. That was a shit trade.

 

[SilenceS]

Disagree. That was a shit trade.

In what retrospect? Q didnt live up to his billing but he was under control and was a top 10 WAR pitcher in the majors over a 3 year span. Jiminez is a LF/DH. The Cubs were all in on Schwarber. He had no where to play in the currently constructed win now mode. Cease has not turned out to be anything special. His walk rate is outrageous and its not getting better.

The trade wasnt awful. Its just a knee jerk reaction to Jiminez, who yet again, had no spot to play with the Cubs in love with Schwarbs.

 

[Diehardfan]

In what retrospect? Q didnt live up to his billing but he was under control and was a top 10 WAR pitcher in the majors over a 3 year span. Jiminez is a LF/DH. The Cubs were all in on Schwarber. He had no where to play in the currently constructed win now mode. Cease has not turned out to be anything special. His walk rate is outrageous and its not getting better.

The trade wasnt awful. Its just a knee jerk reaction to Jiminez, who yet again, had no spot to play with the Cubs in love with Schwarbs.

This is complete crap. You can never have too many good players. No matter what the roster situation was the bottom line is you traded a potential star offensive player and one of the highest rated pitchers in your system for a player who was and still is no more than average. It was a bad deal.

 

[SilenceS]

This is complete crap. You can never have too many good players. No matter what the roster situation was the bottom line is you traded a potential star offensive player and one of the highest rated pitchers in your system for a player who was and still is no more than average. It was a bad deal.

What? Quintana was 8th in the entire league in fWAR from 2014 to 2016. He was 25th in ERA and 15th in FIP during that span. While logging 200 plus innings every year. He also had 3 years of control left. The complete crap is you saying he was an average pitcher. He was a highly sought after pitcher. The Cubs needed pitching. He didnt keep the same trajectory, but nothing said that was going to happen. You are going by revisionist history.

Even then, Jiminez is still a dh in the long run. He is absolutely atrocious in LF. He makes Schwarbs look like Barry Bonds out there. The Cubs had no plans of moving Schwarber anywhere. Cease has been a train wreck. The Cubs did give up a lot for Q, but this whole terrible trade is over blown. It was the right move at the time. Their window to win was then.

 

[Diehardfan]

What? Quintana was 8th in the entire league in fWAR from 2014 to 2016. He was 25th in ERA and 15th in FIP during that span. While logging 200 plus innings every year. He also had 3 years of control left. The complete crap is you saying he was an average pitcher. He was a highly sought after pitcher. The Cubs needed pitching. He didnt keep the same trajectory, but nothing said that was going to happen. You are going by revisionist history.

Even then, Jiminez is still a dh in the long run. He is absolutely atrocious in LF. He makes Schwarbs look like Barry Bonds out there. The Cubs had no plans of moving Schwarber anywhere. Cease has been a train wreck. The Cubs did give up a lot for Q, but this whole terrible trade is over blown. It was the right move at the time. Their window to win was then.

At that point in time Schwarber was a rock in the outfield.....he took an off season and worked on his defensive game....so I guess you are saying no way Jiminez could do the same? Revisionist? Please. All trades in sports are judged over time.

 

[SilenceS]

At that point in time Schwarber was a rock in the outfield.....he took an off season and worked on his defensive game....so I guess you are saying no way Jiminez could do the same? Revisionist? Please. All trades in sports are judged over time.

Schwarber is a much better athlete than Jiminez. Even if he does improve, the Cubs had no intentions of moving Schwarbs. The considered him a cornerstone

 

[JimJohnson]

In what retrospect? Q didnt live up to his billing but he was under control and was a top 10 WAR pitcher in the majors over a 3 year span. Jiminez is a LF/DH. The Cubs were all in on Schwarber. He had no where to play in the currently constructed win now mode. Cease has not turned out to be anything special. His walk rate is outrageous and its not getting better.

The trade wasnt awful. Its just a knee jerk reaction to Jiminez, who yet again, had no spot to play with the Cubs in love with Schwarbs.

Cubs should have waited before pulling the trigger on that trade to see what other pitchers would have been made available closer to the trade deadline. When you have a prospect like Jiminez and Cease, you are in the drivers seat, not the other way around.

And, as it turned out, Verlander became available in August and had the Cubs as his #1. Theo was in talks to get him as well but the Cubs had no pieces left. I'll let you use your imagination on how much better the Cubs would have been with Verlander instead of Q.

 

[Diehardfan]

Cubs should have waited before pulling the trigger on that trade to see what other pitchers would have been made available closer to the trade deadline. When you have a prospect like Jiminez and Cease, you are in the drivers seat, not the other way around.

And, as it turned out, Verlander became available in August and had the Cubs as his #1. Theo was in talks to get him as well but the Cubs had no pieces left. I'll let you use your imagination on how much better the Cubs would have been with Verlander instead of Q.

THAT.....was never gonna happen regardless of the GM propaganda. What made the dumb ass Q trade work was his salary and the team control. Verlander was in the middle of a 7 year $180 mil contract and looking for more....if memory serves, Houston re-upped him shortly after getting him. No way the Cubs do that, nor were they interested in paying the $25 mil per year or whatever he was getting at that time. Looking for a cheaper way, they decided to punch a nice fat hole in their future.

Hey I was disappointed....no, not about missing out on Verlander pitching....about not seeing Kate Upton every fifth day.

 

[JimJohnson]

THAT.....was never gonna happen regardless of the GM propaganda. What made the dumb ass Q trade work was his salary and the team control. Verlander was in the middle of a 7 year $180 mil contract and looking for more....if memory serves, Houston re-upped him shortly after getting him. No way the Cubs do that, nor were they interested in paying the $25 mil per year or whatever he was getting at that time. Looking for a cheaper way, they decided to punch a nice fat hole in their future.

Hey I was disappointed....no, not about missing out on Verlander pitching....about not seeing Kate Upton every fifth day.

Even if in the end Theo decided he couldn't afford Verlander, you still wait and see what other pitchers are made available. You don't just take the first decent pitcher that comes up in discussion. This is especially true as the Cubs had won the WS the season before. Pressure was off, nobody expected a repeat (we were hoping but deep down we knew that wouldn't happen).

 

[JimJohnson]

Schwarber is a much better athlete than Jiminez. Even if he does improve, the Cubs had no intentions of moving Schwarbs. The considered him a cornerstone

The fact that Theo considers Schwarber a cornerstone is a mistake. And then compound that with the fact that he dealt a top spec for a chump pitcher b/c he already filled the available spot with a guy who isn't very good makes the whole thing look even worse.

I get that Theo has built up some goodwill around here because of the chip in 16 but people need to start holding the guy's feet to the fire a bit more.