Official 2021 Offseason Discussion Thread

clonetrooper264

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Conely on a 2 year deal would be ideal. A far better option than Lonzo for 4.
Conley would be a steal on such a deal. As such I don't see it having a chance at happening, especially as he's a very loyal player and would be unlikely to leave a successful Utah team to come to this growing one.
 

Scoot26

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Yeah, Conley is unlikely to go anywhere.
 

Enasic

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Why? Will be cheap and is an instant leader in the locker room. Won’t need to play a ton of minutes either with coby here and would be a great mentor. I’d personally prefer a cheapish deal on rose than paying lonzo 20+ million. When rose is on the court, he’s an upgrade at PG compared to what the Bulls had.
 

knoxville7

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Why? Will be cheap and is an instant leader in the locker room. Won’t need to play a ton of minutes either with coby here and would be a great mentor. I’d personally prefer a cheapish deal on rose than paying lonzo 20+ million. When rose is on the court, he’s an upgrade at PG compared to what the Bulls had.

thats where we differ. I’d much rather have a 23 year old Lonzo than a 33 year old rose. Lonzo is the type of point guard the bulls need, not rose. What exactly does rose provide that Lonzo does not on the basketball court?

you also seem to sound like you want coby to be that pg, and I’m afraid thats just not going to happen. He can be a successful bench scorer, but he isn’t going to be the starting pg of a successful bulls team. That’s why you bring in a pg like Lonzo, to be the starter and allow coby to take his role
 

Enasic

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thats where we differ. I’d much rather have a 23 year old Lonzo than a 33 year old rose. Lonzo is the type of point guard the bulls need, not rose. What exactly does rose provide that Lonzo does not on the basketball court?

you also seem to sound like you want coby to be that pg, and I’m afraid thats just not going to happen. He can be a successful bench scorer, but he isn’t going to be the starting pg of a successful bulls team. That’s why you bring in a pg like Lonzo, to be the starter and allow coby to take his role
I like lonzo. Def don’t want to invest a ton of money in him. If we’re talking around 25 mil per, I’m passing. I don’t even really love the idea of 20 mil per for him. Especially if rose would cost 7-12 mil per. Lonzo is not a guy that’s very good at creating his own shot. He’s basically a spot up 3 pt shooter whereas rose could still get his shot even at his age. I just don’t think lonzo moves the needle that much. Not to the extent of signing him long term at around 20+. I’d prefer a shorter cheaper option like rose who in all honesty, is probably the better player present day and that’s backed by PER and WS/48 by a good margin.

As for coby, he could start or come off the bench it doesn’t really matter to me. He’s not a pure point (not many players are) but he still averaged the same amount of assists as ball more or less. I do prefer coby off the bench, but I think MPG and who finishes the game matters most. I would def put rose in the lineup to close out games unless coby takes a huge jump next year.
 

knoxville7

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I like lonzo. Def don’t want to invest a ton of money in him. If we’re talking around 25 mil per, I’m passing. I don’t even really love the idea of 20 mil per for him. Especially if rose would cost 7-12 mil per. Lonzo is not a guy that’s very good at creating his own shot. He’s basically a spot up 3 pt shooter whereas rose could still get his shot even at his age. I just don’t think lonzo moves the needle that much. Not to the extent of signing him long term at around 20+. I’d prefer a shorter cheaper option like rose who in all honesty, is probably the better player present day and that’s backed by PER and WS/48 by a good margin.

As for coby, he could start or come off the bench it doesn’t really matter to me. He’s not a pure point (not many players are) but he still averaged the same amount of assists as ball more or less. I do prefer coby off the bench, but I think MPG and who finishes the game matters most. I would def put rose in the lineup to close out games unless coby takes a huge jump next year.

yes, rose has slight advantages in those stats this season. But we are projecting what we will get the next 3 seasons from each of them, and I think it’s pretty fair and obvious to say the 23 year old ball is an ascending player, while rose at 33 will be declining the next few years.

when looking at their games, sure rose can create his own shot easier than ball can. But that’s not what the bulls need. They already have guys that can create their own shot...Lavine, Vuc, coby, and even PWill showed flashes of it. What the bulls need is a guy that can get the ball to those guys in their spots with the proper entry and timing. Right now, they really lack a guy that can do that at a high level. Then factor in Lonzo is actually a solid spot up shooter now, and that plays well off of any double teams of the afore mentioned shot creators.

it’s not so much about which guy is currently the better player. It’s who fits best with the core roster and who still has untapped potential possibly. I’m all in on the bulls going after ball, and I hated ball as a prospect coming into the league. He’s impressed me in his development, and I think he’s just going to keep getting better
 

Enasic

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yes, rose has slight advantages in those stats this season. But we are projecting what we will get the next 3 seasons from each of them, and I think it’s pretty fair and obvious to say the 23 year old ball is an ascending player, while rose at 33 will be declining the next few years.

when looking at their games, sure rose can create his own shot easier than ball can. But that’s not what the bulls need. They already have guys that can create their own shot...Lavine, Vuc, coby, and even PWill showed flashes of it. What the bulls need is a guy that can get the ball to those guys in their spots with the proper entry and timing. Right now, they really lack a guy that can do that at a high level. Then factor in Lonzo is actually a solid spot up shooter now, and that plays well off of any double teams of the afore mentioned shot creators.

it’s not so much about which guy is currently the better player. It’s who fits best with the core roster and who still has untapped potential possibly. I’m all in on the bulls going after ball, and I hated ball as a prospect coming into the league. He’s impressed me in his development, and I think he’s just going to keep getting better

We don’t need to project 3 years. When I talk about rose it’s with the idea of him only being signed for 1, 2 years tops at likely for around 10 mil less per year than lonzo. That’s significant. Rose is a good passer and would fill the need you talked about just fine.

lonzo at 20+ mil per year would be the bulls 2nd highest player until if/when Lavine is extended. He’s not even close to the 3rd best player on a championship team. I actually think bulls need a consistent wing player more than anything…and if they’re going to allocate significant $$$ to players that marginally move the needle but don’t transform the team, I would rather go after derozan. Might even be cheaper too.

either way, rose is the better player now and likely next year. I’d much prefer to sign him to a 1-2 year deal at likely 10 mil less than signing ball for four years at more money. Neither one are really long term answers at PG, IMO. Lonzo is a fine player and sure, fills a need, but he’s nothing special and is going to get overpaid
 

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I look at it two ways. Either they will find a third option and prefer it to be a PG in the summer and they hope Williams can be a better defensive Harrison Barnes with limited touches or they go cheap at PG and hope Williams balls out in the summer and improves next year, team makes playoffs and re-signs ZL and then targets a PG via FA or draft in 2022.

Now if we get the 4th pick or better three weeks from now it changes a lot of things. If they get the 4th pick exactly I think they have to move up into the top 3 to get one of the PG or mobley somehow, probably mean moving on from White and maybe more. Although I do like Kuminga and as I stated though I'm no fan of Ball. Ball at PG ZL at SG Vuc at C with Pwill and Kuminga playing the 3 and 4 isnt terrible, again would depend on Pwill emerging on offense or Kuminga for some reason being that dude right away.
 

knoxville7

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We don’t need to project 3 years. When I talk about rose it’s with the idea of him only being signed for 1, 2 years tops at likely for around 10 mil less per year than lonzo. That’s significant. Rose is a good passer and would fill the need you talked about just fine.

lonzo at 20+ mil per year would be the bulls 2nd highest player until if/when Lavine is extended. He’s not even close to the 3rd best player on a championship team. I actually think bulls need a consistent wing player more than anything…and if they’re going to allocate significant $$$ to players that marginally move the needle but don’t transform the team, I would rather go after derozan. Might even be cheaper too.

either way, rose is the better player now and likely next year. I’d much prefer to sign him to a 1-2 year deal at likely 10 mil less than signing ball for four years at more money. Neither one are really long term answers at PG, IMO. Lonzo is a fine player and sure, fills a need, but he’s nothing special and is going to get overpaid

we will just have to agree to disagree then. Rose is not the type of player the bulls need. You can say rose passes the ball fine, but let’s not pretend he’s on Lonzos level of passing because he isn’t.

PWill is the wing player, you have to give him time to develop. He’s 19. Signing a starting wing player would only stunt his development. And you’re not asking Lonzo to be a top 3 player on the team anyways, so I’m not sure why you’re so concerned about that. He would make that kind of money because he’s a FA. That’s how open markets work

and signing derozen would be a travesty. The guy can’t shoot from the outside. Look at how much better Toronto played without him and how much worse the Spurs got with him. He is an even bigger no than rose IMO
 

clonetrooper264

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we will just have to agree to disagree then. Rose is not the type of player the bulls need. You can say rose passes the ball fine, but let’s not pretend he’s on Lonzos level of passing because he isn’t.

PWill is the wing player, you have to give him time to develop. He’s 19. Signing a starting wing player would only stunt his development. And you’re not asking Lonzo to be a top 3 player on the team anyways, so I’m not sure why you’re so concerned about that. He would make that kind of money because he’s a FA. That’s how open markets work

and signing derozen would be a travesty. The guy can’t shoot from the outside. Look at how much better Toronto played without him and how much worse the Spurs got with him. He is an even bigger no than rose IMO
In fairness to Derozan, the Spurs went from the Tim Duncan era with Kawhi to pretty much just Derozan and an old Lamarcus Aldridge. He went to a team with less talent while the Raptors improved with a clearly much better player...but look at them now without Kawhi. They're about as good as San Antonio is now. It's like saying to Al Jefferson, why are the Timberwolves worse after they traded for you? It must be your fault. No...it's because they traded away Kevin Garnett.

That said, I agree with not going for Derozan on this team, the fit isn't there.
 

knoxville7

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In fairness to Derozan, the Spurs went from the Tim Duncan era with Kawhi to pretty much just Derozan and an old Lamarcus Aldridge. He went to a team with less talent while the Raptors improved with a clearly much better player...but look at them now without Kawhi. They're about as good as San Antonio is now. It's like saying to Al Jefferson, why are the Timberwolves worse after they traded for you? It must be your fault. No...it's because they traded away Kevin Garnett.

That said, I agree with not going for Derozan on this team, the fit isn't there.

i get that. But that’s kind of the point too...they traded derozan for Leonard because Leonard was the superior player because he can do a lot more on the court than derozan can. And Duncan had been gone for a year when that trade happened, so the Spurs were already in decline...another reason why the trade happened.

but yeah, derozan on the bulls would be a terrible idea. What position does he even play? He’d almost have to come off the bench, plus he can’t shoot. He’s about the last guy the bulls should target
 

Enasic

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we will just have to agree to disagree then. Rose is not the type of player the bulls need. You can say rose passes the ball fine, but let’s not pretend he’s on Lonzos level of passing because he isn’t.

PWill is the wing player, you have to give him time to develop. He’s 19. Signing a starting wing player would only stunt his development. And you’re not asking Lonzo to be a top 3 player on the team anyways, so I’m not sure why you’re so concerned about that. He would make that kind of money because he’s a FA. That’s how open markets work

and signing derozen would be a travesty. The guy can’t shoot from the outside. Look at how much better Toronto played without him and how much worse the Spurs got with him. He is an even bigger no than rose IMO
I like Williams at the four personally. But that’s fine, agree to disagree. I think rose stays in NY so it’s kind of a moot point anyways.
 

Axl Rose

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We need someone, anyone, to play some defense on this team. Rose doesn't fit that need.
 

Enasic

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We need someone, anyone, to play some defense on this team. Rose doesn't fit that need.
Really? Lonzo is a much better defender than rose? Not so sure about that. Rose is fine defensively.
 

knoxville7

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Really? Lonzo is a much better defender than rose? Not so sure about that. Rose is fine defensively.

he definitely gets more steals and blocks than rose, not that that’s everything defensively. But he also had a slight edge in defensive win shares over rose last year as well. And again, he’s a decade younger than rose...my money is on Lonzo to get better not rose
 

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