Ok they're improved, but

Scoot26

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We all know you have your own system. Not news lol. Also, ZL is currently in the midst of doing this 2 or 3 years in a row now.
Didn't know Zach made an All-NBA 1st or 2nd team. Additionally didn't know Zach has led his team to the playoffs and advanced a round.
where Lonzo got drafted really has nothing to do with anything. It’s not the bulls that drafted him there, so it’s not like they have “that” invested in him.

I too felt Lonzo was extremely overrated coming out of college. It’s the hard work he’s put in to improve his game drastically that had me wanting him in Chicago. And every bulls fan is happy he’s here now I’d assume too

his father is an ass. But Lonzo never seems to be the one running his mouth or acting like an ass.
My point to stating his draft position was if you were someone who was high on him coming out of college. Obviously where he was drafted at is no matter to the Bulls now. I think Lonzo himself understands what he is as well and accepts his role and realizes he can/is flourishing in this kind of role.

We don't really disagree here much on Ball, except that you think he maybe could be an All-Star, where I don't see it. The only way I'd see it is if the East suddenly got extremely weak.
 

knoxville7

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Didn't know Zach made an All-NBA 1st or 2nd team. Additionally didn't know Zach has led his team to the playoffs and advanced a round.

My point to stating his draft position was if you were someone who was high on him coming out of college. Obviously where he was drafted at is no matter to the Bulls now. I think Lonzo himself understands what he is as well and accepts his role and realizes he can/is flourishing in this kind of role.

We don't really disagree here much on Ball, except that you think he maybe could be an All-Star, where I don't see it. The only way I'd see it is if the East suddenly got extremely weak.
He’s been playing at the same level the last couple years is what I said

there will be a day when DD is no longer a bull, and Lonzo will be expected to pick up the scoring slack when that day comes. If he continues to improve his game over that time and learn from DD…there’s no reason he can’t be a guy that scores 18+PPG with 7 assists and 7 rebounds a game on really good shooting %’s while playing top level defense. If he becomes that, I could see where he makes an all star game or two at some point.

but yes, other than where we see his potential ending up…we do agree on him
 

Scoot26

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He’s been playing at the same level the last couple years is what I said

there will be a day when DD is no longer a bull, and Lonzo will be expected to pick up the scoring slack when that day comes. If he continues to improve his game over that time and learn from DD…there’s no reason he can’t be a guy that scores 18+PPG with 7 assists and 7 rebounds a game on really good shooting %’s while playing top level defense. If he becomes that, I could see where he makes an all star game or two at some point.

but yes, other than where we see his potential ending up…we do agree on him
Ah, the Luol Deng method, well minus the 7 apg.
 

knoxville7

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Certainly different styles of play, but yeah…similar impact with more playmaking ability

funny thing with Deng…his best seasons came BEFORE his 2 all star selections. Kinda my point on why those types of awards are more about a popularity contest and about name power. his best seasons got him the all star nods when he was still playing damn good and on winning teams
 
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Gustavus Adolphus

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Billups was a #1 overall PG. He was a big PG, and clutch as fuck.

I dont know what more I could ask of the player he matured into.

I think he's an excellent analyst as well. Smart. Poised. Empathic.
No, no he wasn’t.
 

Gustavus Adolphus

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In any event, nobody would have ever thought they’d be playing the way they are currently.

You’re playing with house money. I’ll worry about about over the hump when it comes time to worry about it.
 

Scoot26

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Certainly different styles of play, but yeah…similar impact with more playmaking ability

funny thing with Deng…his best seasons came BEFORE his 2 all star selections. Kinda my point on why those types of awards are more about a popularity contest and about name power. his best seasons got him the all star nods when he was still playing damn good and on winning teams
I think peak Deng was 06-07. He played well under VDN, but his numbers fell when the team actually got good. Honestly the 11-12 was probably one of his worst seasons, but I felt the coaches were like "well, the Bulls need a 2nd All-Star for being 1st in the league" and they didn't want to pick Noah or Boozer so Deng it was.

Forward was kinda weak outside of the supers though in East at the time.
 

Enasic

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I think peak Deng was 06-07. He played well under VDN, but his numbers fell when the team actually got good. Honestly the 11-12 was probably one of his worst seasons, but I felt the coaches were like "well, the Bulls need a 2nd All-Star for being 1st in the league" and they didn't want to pick Noah or Boozer so Deng it was.

Forward was kinda weak outside of the supers though in East at the time.
Facts. 06-07 def his best season.
 

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General response:

Of course you'd like to have a top 5 or top 10 guy on your team. However, what's the most realistic way this team competes for a title in the near future? How do you aquire a guy like Anthony Davis (even) without breaking up LaVine and DeRozan. Or without giving up 1 of them and another 1 of your core guys?

As for Billups, he isn't on Paul's level. More like the point guard version of the level Jimmy Butler is on, if that.
 

knoxville7

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Billups is the only player in NBA history with a winning record against Jordan, Kobe, and Lebron
 

MassHavoc

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FWIW, we never hear about Lavar Ball anymore, but I gotta give it to the man, his sons ball out. Gotta appreciate him putting so much faith in his kids in a culture where fathers are usually absent.

That said, that dude's obnoxious asl lol
Stacey is that you?
 

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Ask yourself in 3 years at this rate how is Zach a 2nd tier talent ?

Who are all these first tiers talents who in 3 years when Zach is 28 will the league be like oh these guys are on another level above Lavine ?

In 3 years the Bull backcourt will be

Lavine 29 and 27 yr old Ball as our backcourt with a 30 yr old Caruso and will very likely be one of the top 2 backcourts in the league at least barring injuries .

The questions are

Who can Klutch possibly send our way in the future ?

What bigs will want to play with the Zach and Zo backcourt ?

What kinda sway does AK hold with Jokic who will be a free agent at the same time as Vuc in the summer of 2023 as will Christian Wood .

The Bulls are shaping up to be a hot destination in the next 2 off seasons but I dont think they will pay a 30+ yr old Superstar 40 million to join the current squad so its all about finding sub 30 frontline players who can possibly join us.

This all will come down to timing and the ability to take advantage of opportunities that may present themselves

When you look at the overall state of the league the Bulls are in a good position but PWill has really stopped us from being in a GREAT position .

 

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I know i'm the idiot here, but i honestly think this team just needs a serious upgrade to Tony Bradley and they are all set. Not winning a championship all set, but competitive in a series against any non-GSW team. They really need to be able to stay big if Vuc isn't on the floor. The small line-up is a nightmare to teams that try to match it, teams that have the bigs to not have to well...
 

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What bigs wouldn’t wanna play with a Zo and Lavine backcourt?
 

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Just for fun…

Billups is the only player in NBA history with a winning record against Jordan, Kobe, and Lebron
I thought he was a helluva player and when people put Kyrie Irving on lists one of hundreds they fail to realize out class Kyrie in almost every way.

The guy can dribble and is clutch, but I wouldn't want Kyrie anywhere near a pro team. Only Lebron could overcome that kind of cancer.
 

Raskolnikov

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Now Caruso and Green are banged up.

It's like NBA bigs play rough or something.

I'm shocked you can't play 5 guards in this league.
 

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How does having two of the top five scorers not equal to having two superstars? What is a superstar? Top 5? Top 10? Top 20?

I'd argue we have at least two top 20 guys. That, IMO, is all you need, surrounded by talent elsewhere to compliment the top two.
 

Scoot26

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How does having two of the top five scorers not equal to having two superstars? What is a superstar? Top 5? Top 10? Top 20?

I'd argue we have at least two top 20 guys. That, IMO, is all you need, surrounded by talent elsewhere to compliment the top two.
In what basically started as a hobby of mine, was to figure out what a championship squad needs. It helps to look at all the past champs, even past Finalists and see what were on those rosters and what led to that success. What kind of player a team needs to actually win a championship isn't by any means rocket science. The vast majority of champions are clearly top 5 players. But players between top 5-10 pop up and win ships here and there. What hardly ever happens is a team winning without a top 10 player.

For me a superstar comes down to their overall numbers, awards, and what they look like playing (the eye test). Their offensive numbers are generally key, having great defensive stats helps, but isn't required. I've come up with my own very subjective formula for figuring out a superstar.

As I've stated in other posts, much of it ends up in retrospect as you need time to review things. I may also add certain stats to it as well in the future to better flush it out.

I also try my best to limit superstars to 10 players in a particular season. Some seasons there are only 4, some there are 10 (like last year).

I have used PER in my rankings, and over the course of the last 50 years, generally a PER over 20.0+ is required. Today players are a lot more efficient than in the past, so I may be modifying my own rule on that. 20 years ago 22 players had a PER of 20.0 or higher, last season 42 did. Of the 10 I considered superstars in 2020-21, they all had a PER of 24 or higher.

Winning an MVP is pretty much automatically making one a superstar. I also consider MVP vote shares, but then it comes down to making All-NBA 1st/2nd teams.

The next thing I look for is consistency, which means doing one year of 25 ppg, 25 PER, All-NBA 1st, isn't enough to make one a superstar. I like to see two seasons in a row of doing that.

The last two things come down to a sort of eye test, aka can a player take over a game, score clutch baskets, or be known for making key stops. The other is leading your team successfully somewhere. Going to the first round isn't much of an accomplishment, dragging your team to the conference finals or beyond though? That is something noteworthy. Obviously teammates play a role in this one way or another, but we've seen a guy like Allen Iverson pretty much drag his team to the Finals, while a guy like Tracy McGrady never left the 1st round.

Obviously eras change things and then some adjustments are needed, there are always exceptions as well, but the gist of it stays the same.
 

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