Ok they're improved, but

knoxville7

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In regards to “clutch”
First link gives you ZL’s career breakdown in such moments

the second link gives you this seasons leaders in clutch moments.

@Scoot26 the issue with your system(and you acknowledge it), is that it’s a year or two late to “anointing” someone a superstar. Zach is there already IMO

also, derozan shooting 74% in clutch moments this season lol
 

Enasic

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The thing that’s held Zach back from being a superstar has been lack of defense and team success. He’s turned himself into a good defender and his team is now winning. If the bulls keep it up and his defense stays consistent, he’s absolutely a superstar. Does he get a bit out of control at times? Yes. Does he take some bad shots? Yes. Does every superstar also do those things? Yes
 

DirtyDutchDiggler

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In regards to “clutch”
First link gives you ZL’s career breakdown in such moments

the second link gives you this seasons leaders in clutch moments.

@Scoot26 the issue with your system(and you acknowledge it), is that it’s a year or two late to “anointing” someone a superstar. Zach is there already IMO

also, derozan shooting 74% in clutch moments this season lol
Zach is 5th when it comes to both twos and threes. DDR is actually 4th when you select 2pts. That's nuts.
 

Raskolnikov

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No, no he wasn’t.
Why do you report like CNN/Fox?

Tell us the whole story without trying to create bias.

Paul was a 4th selection.
Billups a #3.
Kidd a #2.

The point was he was a 5 star talent from the beginning. He didn't fit Petino. He took a bit longer to mature but I watched him play alot and I put him right there with Kidd and Paul.

He has more chips than both combined.

Maybe the only trait he has above Paul was durability. But he was on the court when it mattered, settled his business and hit the big shots Kidd couldn't hit until late in his career when his legs were washed up.
 

Raskolnikov

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The thing that’s held Zach back from being a superstar has been lack of defense and team success. He’s turned himself into a good defender and his team is now winning. If the bulls keep it up and his defense stays consistent, he’s absolutely a superstar. Does he get a bit out of control at times? Yes. Does he take some bad shots? Yes. Does every superstar also do those things? Yes
I agree...

And I don't have a problem with one guy on each team taking some bad shots.

Somebody has to be that go to guy and force shots late in clock's.

He's not Mirotic where HoyBoy should have sat him on the bench for a quarter, stared at him intently for the rest of the half with your back to the game from the edge of coaches box, then slowly approach him at the buzzer and slap him firmly as you head to the lockers.

You coach your way, I'll coach mine. But I guarantee he nor anyone else ever takes a 45 foot 3 pointer again.

Lavine maybe has earned the occasional heat check from there, he's a full green light player.
 

Scoot26

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In regards to “clutch”
First link gives you ZL’s career breakdown in such moments

the second link gives you this seasons leaders in clutch moments.

@Scoot26 the issue with your system(and you acknowledge it), is that it’s a year or two late to “anointing” someone a superstar. Zach is there already IMO

also, derozan shooting 74% in clutch moments this season lol
Yep, requires a lot of retrospect. Being a history guy, kinda why I make it that way.

About the only thing that instantly shoots someone to superstardom in my system is winning the MVP award. However, that also requires a season to conclude. We're 16 games into this season, so using my system without the stuff that requires the season to conclude, Zach does meet overall numbers, PER, and the eye test.
 

knoxville7

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Yep, requires a lot of retrospect. Being a history guy, kinda why I make it that way.

About the only thing that instantly shoots someone to superstardom in my system is winning the MVP award. However, that also requires a season to conclude. We're 16 games into this season, so using my system without the stuff that requires the season to conclude, Zach does meet overall numbers, PER, and the eye test.

I am also a history guy…it’s what my degree is in.

And despite acknowledging ZL is probably added to your list at the end of the season…you still claim the bulls don’t have the star power to make a run at the finals?
 

Scoot26

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I am also a history guy…it’s what my degree is in.

And despite acknowledging ZL is probably added to your list at the end of the season…you still claim the bulls don’t have the star power to make a run at the finals?
I did? I just said without the stuff that requires the season to conclude, Zach meets some stuff at 16 games in (now 17). I'm not going to anoint anything at this point in time. I wouldn't have even said Derrick Rose was a superstar at this point yet in the 2010-2011 season.

So yeah, I'm sticking with the Bulls don't have the star power to make the NBA Finals. Prove me wrong Zach Lavine, prove me wrong.
 

knoxville7

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derozan and lavine rank 1st and 2nd in fourth quarter points scored this season

but they don’t have the star power to compete for a title this season?!

:notfunny:
 

Enasic

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derozan and lavine rank 1st and 2nd in fourth quarter points scored this season

but they don’t have the star power to compete for a title this season?!

:notfunny:
The NBA is wide open this year and I think there is a shift going on overall…in the past basically 2, maybe 3 teams had a chance every year. I think it’s going to be a bit more unpredictable. Bulls can compete but it’ll come down to matchups in the playoffs. Let’s hope they don’t have to play philly.
 

knoxville7

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The NBA is wide open this year and I think there is a shift going on overall…in the past basically 2, maybe 3 teams had a chance every year. I think it’s going to be a bit more unpredictable. Bulls can compete but it’ll come down to matchups in the playoffs. Let’s hope they don’t have to play philly.
100% agree. There’s like 7 or 8 teams that are kinda lumped in there with equal chances at a title, with GS maybe a notch above them all.

Playoffs will be fun again with matchups mattering more again.

Philly certainly gave the bulls issues. It’s why I imagine the front office will be looking to fix that weakness

the trade deadline could end up deciding things quite a bit, who knows.
 

Stratmaster

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In what basically started as a hobby of mine, was to figure out what a championship squad needs. It helps to look at all the past champs, even past Finalists and see what were on those rosters and what led to that success. What kind of player a team needs to actually win a championship isn't by any means rocket science. The vast majority of champions are clearly top 5 players. But players between top 5-10 pop up and win ships here and there. What hardly ever happens is a team winning without a top 10 player.

For me a superstar comes down to their overall numbers, awards, and what they look like playing (the eye test). Their offensive numbers are generally key, having great defensive stats helps, but isn't required. I've come up with my own very subjective formula for figuring out a superstar.

As I've stated in other posts, much of it ends up in retrospect as you need time to review things. I may also add certain stats to it as well in the future to better flush it out.

I also try my best to limit superstars to 10 players in a particular season. Some seasons there are only 4, some there are 10 (like last year).

I have used PER in my rankings, and over the course of the last 50 years, generally a PER over 20.0+ is required. Today players are a lot more efficient than in the past, so I may be modifying my own rule on that. 20 years ago 22 players had a PER of 20.0 or higher, last season 42 did. Of the 10 I considered superstars in 2020-21, they all had a PER of 24 or higher.

Winning an MVP is pretty much automatically making one a superstar. I also consider MVP vote shares, but then it comes down to making All-NBA 1st/2nd teams.

The next thing I look for is consistency, which means doing one year of 25 ppg, 25 PER, All-NBA 1st, isn't enough to make one a superstar. I like to see two seasons in a row of doing that.

The last two things come down to a sort of eye test, aka can a player take over a game, score clutch baskets, or be known for making key stops. The other is leading your team successfully somewhere. Going to the first round isn't much of an accomplishment, dragging your team to the conference finals or beyond though? That is something noteworthy. Obviously teammates play a role in this one way or another, but we've seen a guy like Allen Iverson pretty much drag his team to the Finals, while a guy like Tracy McGrady never left the 1st round.

Obviously eras change things and then some adjustments are needed, there are always exceptions as well, but the gist of it stays the same.
You had me up until "I use PER" at which point I stopped reading. Sorry :(
 

knoxville7

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I wonder what New Orleans is planning to do with Jonas Valanciunas. He would be an interesting target for the bulls
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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When I think of the term Superstar in the NBA, I think of a perennial top 10 player. A player who is not only an All-Star but a player who is expected to be in that game every year certainly and carry a team into the playoffs just about every year, or at least come close to it even with a bad supporting cast.

Let's get more than a third of the way through a season before we start anointing our two best players as Superstars. Let's not forget that last year DeRozan was on a team that did not make the playoffs and Zach LaVine has never even had a winning record on a team. That will all but certainly change this year but that doesn't mean that they are anywhere close to perennial All-Stars and top 10 talent in the league.

KD, LeBron, Giannis, healthy Kawhi, Curry, Harden, Lillard, Luka, Embiid, Jokic. I'm not sure how much further you really want to go to push the Superstar label out.
 

knoxville7

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Harden a superstar lmao

Also, this boards inability to separate team success and individual talent

Like, you can’t act like team success is the big factor, and then say something like, “they aren’t top 10 talents in the league.”

And ZL is at the beginning of being a perennial all star. Anyone doubt that he will make the roster this year?! Didn’t think so. That makes him someone we all EXPECT to be on the all star team, right?!

Sounds like the start of superstardom to me. But hey, I guess many here would rather wait until his career is over to access whether or not he was a superstar. Bunch of hindsight Harry’s here.
 
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Raskolnikov

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Harden a superstar lmao

Also, this boards inability to separate team success and individual talent

Like, you can’t act like team success is the big factor, and then say something like, “they aren’t top 10 talents in the league.”

And ZL is at the beginning of being a perennial all star. Anyone doubt that he will make the roster this year?! Didn’t think so. That makes him someone we all EXPECT to be on the all star team, right?!

Sounds like the start of superstardom to me. But hey, I guess many here would rather wait until his career is over to access whether or not he was a superstar. Bunch of hindsight Harry’s here.
No matter how high we put the bar on Lavine, you raise it lol.

I kinda agree though, at least that he is borderline.

Former slam dunk champion.
Olympic gold medalist.

When USA basketball selects you its not a slam dunk but it puts you on my radar for superstardom.

The dunk championship is kind of a feather in your cap as an entertainer.

He needs playoff success as bad as he needs quality depth in this front court to attain it.
 

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