Ok they're improved, but

Raskolnikov

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We should solve the front court expecting nothing from P.Williams, and if he recovers 100% and develops his strengths within a couple years, all the better.
 

knoxville7

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No matter how high we put the bar on Lavine, you raise it lol.

I kinda agree though, at least that he is borderline.

Former slam dunk champion.
Olympic gold medalist.

When USA basketball selects you its not a slam dunk but it's puts you on my radar for superstardom.

The dunk championship is kind of a feather in your cap as an entertainer.

He needs playoff success as bad as he needs depth in this front court to attain it.
Haha damn right I do! I bet ZL would have the bar even higher for himself

and I agree, once the playoff success comes…then everyone will be on the ZL stardom train
 

Scoot26

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Harden a superstar lmao
I went back and forth for a few seasons on Harden being a superstar before deciding the numbers/awards/success/eye test finally said he did.

This season thus far (and really last season) he is failing to meet those standards so James Harden could very well be on his way out.
Also, this boards inability to separate team success and individual talent

Like, you can’t act like team success is the big factor, and then say something like, “they aren’t top 10 talents in the league.”

And ZL is at the beginning of being a perennial all star. Anyone doubt that he will make the roster this year?! Didn’t think so. That makes him someone we all EXPECT to be on the all star team, right?!

Sounds like the start of superstardom to me. But hey, I guess many here would rather wait until his career is over to access whether or not he was a superstar. Bunch of hindsight Harry’s here.

Probably because, with limited exception, they go hand in hand.

We all seem to have different definitions of superstars. I know a few people that just assume anyone who makes the All-Star team is then a superstar. In 2011-12, Luol Deng was a superstar to them. In your world, Zach is a superstar, and that is perfectly fine for you to state.
 

knoxville7

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The eye test thing makes me wonder how some of you don’t think ZL is a superstar. The guy does things on the court that very few can do

Then it’s backed up by the numbers

But apparently James Harden is a superstar and Zach LaVine is not. That’s laughable

it’ll be fun watching him prove the majority of people here wrong, just like he has proved many here wrong about him to this point
 

Scoot26

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The eye test thing makes me wonder how some of you don’t think ZL is a superstar. The guy does things on the court that very few can do

Then it’s backed up by the numbers

But apparently James Harden is a superstar and Zach LaVine is not. That’s laughable

it’ll be fun watching him prove the majority of people here wrong, just like he has proved many here wrong about him to this point
So let me get this straight...

Not a Superstar:
SeasonTeamAgeGPPPGRPGSPGAPGPERVORPWS/48BPMAll-StarAll-NBAAll-DAwardsTeam Success
2014-15HOU258127.44.71.97.026.78.1.2658.8*1stL-WCF 1-4
2017-18HOU287230.44.81.88.829.87.7.2899.9*1stMVPL-WCF 3-4
2018-19HOU297836.15.82.07.530.69.3.25411.0*1stL-2nd 2-4

Superstar:

SeasonTeamAgeGPPPGRPGSPGAPGPERVORPWS/48BPMAll-StarAll-NBAAll-DAwardsTeam Success
2020-21CHI255827.44.40.84.921.52.9.1383.7*Missed Playoffs
 

knoxville7

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So let me get this straight...

Not a Superstar:
SeasonTeamAgeGPPPGRPGSPGAPGPERVORPWS/48BPMAll-StarAll-NBAAll-DAwardsTeam Success
2014-15HOU258127.44.71.97.026.78.1.2658.8*1stL-WCF 1-4
2017-18HOU287230.44.81.88.829.87.7.2899.9*1stMVPL-WCF 3-4
2018-19HOU297836.15.82.07.530.69.3.25411.0*1stL-2nd 2-4

Superstar:

SeasonTeamAgeGPPPGRPGSPGAPGPERVORPWS/48BPMAll-StarAll-NBAAll-DAwardsTeam Success
2020-21CHI255827.44.40.84.921.52.9.1383.7*Missed Playoffs
You’re the one that mentioned the eye test. And I said based on that, how anyone comes away with harden being a better player is baffling. Harden abused poor officiating for years to make his above average play seem like MVP level play based on the numbers. It’s interesting(not really) how usage is left out of all of that. harden played hero ball and went to the free throw line at an absurd clip to accentuate his numbers by flopping around into defenders. Like I’ve said before, I don’t blame Harden for that…but it’s a fact

ZL does things on the basketball court that James harden can’t. Can you think of something harden can do on the court that ZL can’t do? I can’t think of one

Like I said to rask…once the team success comes around for ZL, everyone will recognize him as the superstar he is

Many on here(not saying you necessarily) have posted things saying that ZL was nothing more than a 3rd option or a bench scorer, and I’d say it’s fair to say they were incorrect

It’s going to be fun to see him continue to prove people wrong
 

Raskolnikov

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The eye test thing makes me wonder how some of you don’t think ZL is a superstar. The guy does things on the court that very few can do

Then it’s backed up by the numbers

But apparently James Harden is a superstar and Zach LaVine is not. That’s laughable

it’ll be fun watching him prove the majority of people here wrong, just like he has proved many here wrong about him to this point
Harden is one of the greatest scorers to ever play.

Kareem. Jordan. Durant. Curry.

He's way up there in terms of having an unstoppable skill-set.
 

SilenceS

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I have no dog in the fight, but Lavine is very good. He is not Harden level during that span. Eye test or numbers. Harden could have been argued a top 5 player. Lavine is not in that argument or close to it.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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James Harden is a superstar. Not a huge fan of him, but he's almost certainly a top 5 shooting guard of all-time.

Harden is having a down year. And it would still be shocking if he's not an All Star. That's how good he is.

He's arguably having as good of a season as LaVine even adjusting to not being able to get to the FT line at will anymore and getting back into game shape from extended time off and injury.

As for team success, as good as the Bulls start to the season has been, the Nets still have the best record in their conference.

ZL < Harden

And why are we talking about ZL over DeRozan anyway? DeRozan is a better player this season in my opinion.
 

Scoot26

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You’re the one that mentioned the eye test. And I said based on that, how anyone comes away with harden being a better player is baffling. Harden abused poor officiating for years to make his above average play seem like MVP level play based on the numbers. It’s interesting(not really) how usage is left out of all of that. harden played hero ball and went to the free throw line at an absurd clip to accentuate his numbers by flopping around into defenders. Like I’ve said before, I don’t blame Harden for that…but it’s a fact

ZL does things on the basketball court that James harden can’t. Can you think of something harden can do on the court that ZL can’t do? I can’t think of one

Like I said to rask…once the team success comes around for ZL, everyone will recognize him as the superstar he is

Many on here(not saying you necessarily) have posted things saying that ZL was nothing more than a 3rd option or a bench scorer, and I’d say it’s fair to say they were incorrect

It’s going to be fun to see him continue to prove people wrong
Eye test is just one aspect of measuring the whole thing. There is not really any metric that Zach outdoes Harden on. You mention usage.. 2014-15 season, Harden is 31.3, Zach is 31.0. Not much of a difference there. Harden's usage increases the following years before topping out at 40.5 in 2018-19.. It was 36.1 his MVP season.

It's fine if people don't want to think of Harden as a superstar anymore, and due to his down year this year, injuries last year, he may very well be on his way out. But he certainly was one for most of his years in Houston.
 

Scoot26

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And why are we talking about ZL over DeRozan anyway? DeRozan is a better player this season in my opinion.
Their stats are all pretty close. DeMar gets to the line more than Zach, while Zach makes more threes are the difference really.
 

knoxville7

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Eye test is just one aspect of measuring the whole thing. There is not really any metric that Zach outdoes Harden on. You mention usage.. 2014-15 season, Harden is 31.3, Zach is 31.0. Not much of a difference there. Harden's usage increases the following years before topping out at 40.5 in 2018-19.. It was 36.1 his MVP season.

It's fine if people don't want to think of Harden as a superstar anymore, and due to his down year this year, injuries last year, he may very well be on his way out. But he certainly was one for most of his years in Houston.
I never considered harden a superstar and disagree with the notion he “certainly” was one for most of his Houston years. And that’s fine to disagree, but harden will go down as an extremely overrated player IMO. At least Westbrook(another overrated player) has that freakish athletic ability that allows him to do things other guys can’t even dream of doing

And I think it’s fair to say if you’re starting a franchise today, ZL would be an easy choice over James Harden. But maybe you disagree there as well
 

RacerX

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derozan and lavine rank 1st and 2nd in fourth quarter points scored this season

but they don’t have the star power to compete for a title this season?!

:notfunny:

Yes, both statements can be true. (por que no los dos?)
 

knoxville7

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Christian Wood of the Rockets sure was impressive the other night. Wonder what the Rockets would want for him?!
 

knoxville7

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Was it you @Scoot26 that brought up the 20 game mark of the season being a barometer of sorts for who is legit and who isn’t? Can’t remember if it was you or someone else…

either way, bulls are 13-7 for a .650 winning percentage. Which most years is good for the #2 or #3 seed
 

knoxville7

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Yes, both statements can be true. (por que no los dos?)
They can but they aren’t

IMO the bulls have enough “star” power on the roster to compete. What could hinder them greatly is lack of depth behind those guys
 

Scoot26

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Was it you @Scoot26 that brought up the 20 game mark of the season being a barometer of sorts for who is legit and who isn’t? Can’t remember if it was you or someone else…

either way, bulls are 13-7 for a .650 winning percentage. Which most years is good for the #2 or #3 seed
Doubt it was me. My motto is generally January.
 

Rackshaq

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Zach has superstar talent, but he lacks discipline and no how. He and this team desperately needs a veteran player that has been on a winning team that they "respect 1 and is vocal 2". We all have watched games when Zach comes down and shoots too many ill-advised 3's. Yes he also has saved the team with his raw talent. My observation of Zach is that he has pretty much played on bad teams and has been coached by bad coaches that he has bad habits to how to play winning basketball. This can be fixed if he is open to learn. I like our team but we are not a finished product yet.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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In my opinion, Miami proved that they were better the other day. The Bulls have basically become the Toronto Raptors of 5 years ago. Right down to DeRozan being on both teams, the European center, and prototypical point guard with good shooting and defense. Fringe contenders
 

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