The Last Dance Thread

[greg23]

The more interesting debate is that Krause wanted to trade Pippen after the 97 season and had a deal in place with Boston for two 1st and Reinsdorf nixed it.

Reportedly he would have used those two picks on Tracy McGrady and Ron Mercer....who were available at those slots.

The 97 draft generally sucked after #1 pick Tim Duncan and these two might have been two of the top 4 in that draft (with Chauncey Billups)

So

An aging Pippen for 1 more year that nets the bulls a title

For

Mercer and McGrady...and who knows what would have happened in 98; but post 98 would sure look a hell of a lot better with those two than what actually occurred

 

[Scoot26]

The more interesting debate is that Krause wanted to trade Pippen after the 97 season and had a deal in place with Boston for two 1st and Reinsdorf nixed it.

Reportedly he would have used those two picks on Tracy McGrady and Ron Mercer....who were available at those slots.

The 97 draft generally sucked after #1 pick Tim Duncan and these two might have been two of the top 4 in that draft (with Chauncey Billups)

So

An aging Pippen for 1 more year that nets the bulls a title

For

Mercer and McGrady...and who knows what would have happened in 98; but post 98 would sure look a hell of a lot better with those two than what actually occurred

I mean, I'd rather have the 98 championship, as I don't think Jordan-McGrady-Mercer win a title by any means.. and I'm not even convinced Phil and Jordan returns in 98 if the Bulls trade away Pippen after 97. The sequence of events was:

7/24/97 - Bulls retain Phil for 1 year
8/28/97 - Bulls sign Jordan to 1 year contract.
Jordan had allegedly tried to get a no trade provision in his contract, not for him, but for Pippen lol.

I kinda feel like Phi is out if its clear Krause is restarting his rebuilding plan, and never signs, which then also triggers Jordan to leave.

So then this likely ends with the Bulls being bad in 98 and lottery bound for the 98 draft, which isn't a bad draft.. But I don't know who Krause was enamored with in 98. Pierce is the guy to take in that draft and he fell to #10...so of course hindsight is easy, but he's likely available where the Bulls are picking. But that draft is an unknown with Krause since he had no stock in it, thus word never really got out who he liked there. While in 97, it was clear he liked McGrady and Mercer with this trade rumor, then tried to get TMac as a FA and did get Mercer later on.

 

[Leomaz]

We given he said that after

Well given he said that in 1997, and they last won in 1998, and Krause resigned in 2003.. the answer is yes. John Paxson came in with a somewhat different philsophy and the Bulls combined Paxson's players and Krauses's remains to make the playoffs in 2005, and started what was a decent stretch.

Man he should had just kept his mouth shut or had a better plan in place.

 

[Granada]

I really liked the stuff about Kerr in the last two episodes. One of the funniest parts of the whole documentary was when Jordan and Kerr were on the bench during the championship game in 97, and Jordan knew all the cameras were on him, so he's trying to keep it on the down low while telling Kerr "be ready," only for Kerr to completely blow the cover and scream back at him "If he switches, I'll be ready! I'll be ready!"

 

[Pegger]

Overall I loved the nostalgia of the documentary and it brought me back to a real fun time in watching NBA basketball.

There were a few things that left me wanting more:

• The 'win at all cost' mentality just doesn't sit well with me. I think if any of us had that person in our workplace we'd probably dislike them. I'd add it probably wouldn't fit in recruiting FAs in today's NBA. That's what the Lakers tried to do with having Kobe directly be a part of pitching Aldridge and Howard and it didn't work. That might also be why the Wizards never could and the Hornets can't attract premium talent. I could imagine after a big named FA gets over the excitement of meeting MJ when talking about how the organization plans to win it's all about MJ's drive, not so much the player being courted.
• Many already disliked the late HOF GM Jerry Krause, but he has fully earned credit for putting that roster and coaching staff together. There was a lot of work done to fit the right pieces around MJ, which wasn't an easy job. A small amount of credit was given, but throughout the series he was more the punch line of a lot of jokes. He died ~3 years ago, so I could imagine for his family some of the commentary was hurtful. They did dedicate an episode to the late Kobe Bryant, who had nothing to do with the Bulls, so it seemed like they could have been a bit more classy in that area. I did think Jordan, a current owner of the Hornets, was really 'nice' to fellow NBA franchise owner, Jerry Reinsdorf, who could have easily wrote the checks to keep the band together. IMHO the wrong Jerry got the blame for the Bulls being dismantled, which again, could be hard on some of Krause's family who are still grieving.
• The discussion of his gambling quickly turned into the narrative that MJ actually has an addiction to 'competition' and it's not about the gambling itself. Seems more like an excuse than acknowledgement gambling isn't healthy for most people that do it.
• Minimal talk about the family he's built. It was all about Jordan's competitive drive, not the structure he actually lived in. To be clear I am not expecting a Jordan produced series to take time and discuss his first wife's side of their divorce. Personally I wanted to see more about how an elite athlete like Jordan are humans like me and you and seeing their families adds that dimension. I would have liked to have seen him talk about the relationship with his kids or his kids/current wife talk about him as a dad.

I liked it. As for settling the whole Jordan vs. James argument it displayed unseen footage of what the Michael backers already knew (titles, competitive drive, etc..) while not discussing some of the areas the LeBron backers use as their counter arguments (analytics, larger contribution to society, etc...).

 

[dweebs19]

I really liked the stuff about Kerr in the last two episodes. One of the funniest parts of the whole documentary was when Jordan and Kerr were on the bench during the championship game in 97, and Jordan knew all the cameras were on him, so he's trying to keep it on the down low while telling Kerr "be ready," only for Kerr to completely blow the cover and scream back at him "If he switches, I'll be ready! I'll be ready!"

Kerr looked like a kid who was just so happy that Jordan trusted him. He didn't want to let Jordan down. It was great to see. I was happy for Kerr...and he went on to win again the following year with the Spurs

 

[Granada]

Well, this escalated quickly...

An Outraged Horace Grant Says Michael Jordan Lied in 'The Last Dance'

He's the latest Chicago Bulls player to fire back after the popular documentary.

www.esquire.com

 

[DC]

10/10. Will purchase to have it always.

 

[fenderpfunk]

http://instagr.am/p/CAY0LnDF4Ee/

 

[anotheridiot]

The one guy who got fucked by Krause the most, that 7 year cheap deal, then potential trade to Boston in 97, the eventual struggle delaying surgery and sitting out, Scottie Pippen was the only guy who said Jerry Krause was the greatest general manager of all time, when he gave his list of greatest team ever.

 

[Pegger]

Well, this escalated quickly...

An Outraged Horace Grant Says Michael Jordan Lied in 'The Last Dance'

He's the latest Chicago Bulls player to fire back after the popular documentary.

www.esquire.com

Yeah, I heard Pippen isn't happy about his portrayal as well.

Let's remove how great MJ is from the equation for a second. Does this make Phil Jackson actually look better? He kept everyone working together and there were some strong personalities. Seeing how he did it again with Kobe in LA I have a deeper respect for his work on both of those teams.

 

[ijustposthere]

Yeah, I heard Pippen isn't happy about his portrayal as well.

Let's remove how great MJ is from the equation for a second. Does this make Phil Jackson actually look better? He kept everyone working together and there were some strong personalities. Seeing how he did it again with Kobe in LA I have a deeper respect for his work on both of those teams.

I don't know why Pippen is unhappy. Honestly, I don't think we got any new info in regards to him.

 

[ijustposthere]

Overall I loved the nostalgia of the documentary and it brought me back to a real fun time in watching NBA basketball.

There were a few things that left me wanting more:

• The 'win at all cost' mentality just doesn't sit well with me. I think if any of us had that person in our workplace we'd probably dislike them. I'd add it probably wouldn't fit in recruiting FAs in today's NBA. That's what the Lakers tried to do with having Kobe directly be a part of pitching Aldridge and Howard and it didn't work. That might also be why the Wizards never could and the Hornets can't attract premium talent. I could imagine after a big named FA gets over the excitement of meeting MJ when talking about how the organization plans to win it's all about MJ's drive, not so much the player being courted.
• Many already disliked the late HOF GM Jerry Krause, but he has fully earned credit for putting that roster and coaching staff together. There was a lot of work done to fit the right pieces around MJ, which wasn't an easy job. A small amount of credit was given, but throughout the series he was more the punch line of a lot of jokes. He died ~3 years ago, so I could imagine for his family some of the commentary was hurtful. They did dedicate an episode to the late Kobe Bryant, who had nothing to do with the Bulls, so it seemed like they could have been a bit more classy in that area. I did think Jordan, a current owner of the Hornets, was really 'nice' to fellow NBA franchise owner, Jerry Reinsdorf, who could have easily wrote the checks to keep the band together. IMHO the wrong Jerry got the blame for the Bulls being dismantled, which again, could be hard on some of Krause's family who are still grieving.
• The discussion of his gambling quickly turned into the narrative that MJ actually has an addiction to 'competition' and it's not about the gambling itself. Seems more like an excuse than acknowledgement gambling isn't healthy for most people that do it.
• Minimal talk about the family he's built. It was all about Jordan's competitive drive, not the structure he actually lived in. To be clear I am not expecting a Jordan produced series to take time and discuss his first wife's side of their divorce. Personally I wanted to see more about how an elite athlete like Jordan are humans like me and you and seeing their families adds that dimension. I would have liked to have seen him talk about the relationship with his kids or his kids/current wife talk about him as a dad.

I liked it. As for settling the whole Jordan vs. James argument it displayed unseen footage of what the Michael backers already knew (titles, competitive drive, etc..) while not discussing some of the areas the LeBron backers use as their counter arguments (analytics, larger contribution to society, etc...).

I don't think the documentary was about MJ's personal life as much as his sports life. The only things they really mentioned about his personal life were things that affected his sports life.

The 'win at all cost' mentality and the yelling/screaming doesn't work today at all. Most people just end up tuning it out and it becomes counter-productive. I kind of feel like people seem more mentally fragile. When my coaches yelled at me or any of my teammates to the point where we got tears in our eyes, we weren't hurt, we were pissed the fuck off. It became an "I'll show them" attitude. It also doesn't work if the person yelling and trying to fire everyone up is some scrub that can't elevate his game. But I don't think you can compare those guys in pro sports to us schlubs in a normal work setting making a hell of a lot less money. Quite frankly, we have more flexibility if we want to work somewhere else. Sports vs. a conventional work setting just isn't really an apt comparison. If some boss is yelling about some minor issue in a cubicle setting, it's more comical than anything.

As to the LeBron debate, he is far better when it comes to publicly contributing and backing causes. For that, he always has the utmost respect from me, but that has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not he is the better basketball player, which he honestly isn't. I still don't think he's passed Kobe.

 

[Pegger]

I don't know why Pippen is unhappy. Honestly, I don't think we got any new info in regards to him.

Scottie Pippen Reportedly 'Beyond Livid' About 'The Last Dance' Portrayal

Scottie Pippen is reportedly "beyond livid" with the way he was portrayed in ESPN's 'The Last Dance,' and he reportedly blames this on Michael Jordan.

www.complex.com

I think it's the part where he sat out the Kucoc's game winner. Didn't like the selfish angle that the team showed.

So for the record, Scottie and Horace aren't happy. I'd assume Krause would be upset if he didn't die 3 years ago. Would be interesting if his family released a statement. Doubt that will happen, but still it seems this docuseries is ruffling some feathers and some are definitely annoyed.

 

[ijustposthere]

Scottie Pippen Reportedly 'Beyond Livid' About 'The Last Dance' Portrayal

Scottie Pippen is reportedly "beyond livid" with the way he was portrayed in ESPN's 'The Last Dance,' and he reportedly blames this on Michael Jordan.

www.complex.com

I think it's the part where he sat out the Kucoc's game winner. Didn't like the selfish angle that the team showed.

So for the record, Scottie and Horace aren't happy. I'd assume Krause would be upset if he didn't die 3 years ago. Would be interesting if his family released a statement. Doubt that will happen, but still it seems this docuseries is ruffling some feathers and some are definitely annoyed.

I read that. Like I said though, there wasn't any new info. If anything, it made him look a little better since everyone came to bat for him saying that's not who he was. Then he says he wouldn't change it. Horace has a bone to pick with MJ blaming him solely for the book. I see Horace's POV, though I think he's lying about not giving any info. I just feel like he wasn't the only one, as MJ pretty much tries to claim. His retort came off like he was grasping straws about the whole cocaine thing though. It was a response to a question, and MJ didn't exactly name names.

 

[Pegger]

I don't think the documentary was about MJ's personal life as much as his sports life. The only things they really mentioned about his personal life were things that affected his sports life.

The 'win at all cost' mentality and the yelling/screaming doesn't work today at all. Most people just end up tuning it out and it becomes counter-productive. I kind of feel like people seem more mentally fragile. When my coaches yelled at me or any of my teammates to the point where we got tears in our eyes, we weren't hurt, we were pissed the fuck off. It became an "I'll show them" attitude. It also doesn't work if the person yelling and trying to fire everyone up is some scrub that can't elevate his game. But I don't think you can compare those guys in pro sports to us schlubs in a normal work setting making a hell of a lot less money. Quite frankly, we have more flexibility if we want to work somewhere else. Sports vs. a conventional work setting just isn't really an apt comparison. If some boss is yelling about some minor issue in a cubicle setting, it's more comical than anything.

As to the LeBron debate, he is far better when it comes to publicly contributing and backing causes. For that, he always has the utmost respect from me, but that has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not he is the better basketball player, which he honestly isn't. I still don't think he's passed Kobe.

RE: "I kind of feel like people seem more mentally fragile" - This could easily be true. I also think the pure science around mental illness, depression and society's perception on abuse/bullying is very different than it was 20 years ago. Back then men didn't cry, period. Hell, look at something like Kevin Love's op-ed on the stress he felt. It's weird to think, but 20 years ago if he goes to the media with his feelings it will come back as nightly trash talk for the next 5 years. It ties into a good debate of is society better now? Is being more aware and open with our feelings good, bad or just different thing? Either way there's no going back.

RE: LeBron debate - I'm not touching it. That discussion has been had millions of times and the result is the same. if you like Mike or LeBron more, then no one will talk you from that stance. Personally I shrug at all 'lists'. from my side I don't care who's #1 or if someone slid from #2 all the way to #6 (according to the recent Paul Pierce comments). At the end of the day:

Seriously though, why do I care if someone has a different opinion on something as meaningless as which of two players who played in entirely different eras? Why stop there. Start comparing basketball players to hockey and football players. Then start comparing them to animals. Imagine the debates: I think LeBron is way more dominant than Pride male in a Lion tribe..., but he's nothing compared to a queen bee!

 

[Pegger]

I read that. Like I said though, there wasn't any new info. If anything, it made him look a little better since everyone came to bat for him saying that's not who he was. Then he says he wouldn't change it. Horace has a bone to pick with MJ blaming him solely for the book. I see Horace's POV, though I think he's lying about not giving any info. I just feel like he wasn't the only one, as MJ pretty much tries to claim. His retort came off like he was grasping straws about the whole cocaine thing though. It was a response to a question, and MJ didn't exactly name names.

It's just weird. The Bill Wennington vid that's actually on the landing page of chicitysports is interesting. Bill is defending Scottie and saying he was his favorite teammate, then he also says he's sort of the opposite of Jordan in the next line. I know he didn't directly say it, but doesn't that imply that Jordan was fairly far from Bill's favorite teammate?

I'd add, we can pick a part Horace's response, but in all this MJ has said nothing. He obviously had final say over the docuseries, so he put out exactly what he wanted and now we are seeing other people's reaction. MJ is fairly private, so there has been little/no comment from him on his teammates reaction. I agree that Horace looks like he's 'grasping at straws', but he has so much of a smaller platform and with MJ being silent it's almost like replying isn't worth his time.

You can't compare one person taking months/years to produce a great story with a team of writers to one 16 minute sit down interview. They just aren't the same in terms of explaining an idea or having the time to fully present an argument.

 

[ijustposthere]

RE: "I kind of feel like people seem more mentally fragile" - This could easily be true. I also think the pure science around mental illness, depression and society's perception on abuse/bullying is very different than it was 20 years ago. Back then men didn't cry, period. Hell, look at something like Kevin Love's op-ed on the stress he felt. It's weird to think, but 20 years ago if he goes to the media with his feelings it will come back as nightly trash talk for the next 5 years. It ties into a good debate of is society better now? Is being more aware and open with our feelings good, bad or just different thing? Either way there's no going back.

RE: LeBron debate - I'm not touching it. That discussion has been had millions of times and the result is the same. if you like Mike or LeBron more, then no one will talk you from that stance. Personally I shrug at all 'lists'. from my side I don't care who's #1 or if someone slid from #2 all the way to #6 (according to the recent Paul Pierce comments). At the end of the day:

Seriously though, why do I care if someone has a different opinion on something as meaningless as which of two players who played in entirely different eras? Why stop there. Start comparing basketball players to hockey and football players. Then start comparing them to animals. Imagine the debates: I think LeBron is way more dominant than Pride male in a Lion tribe..., but he's nothing compared to a queen bee!

I think it also depends on respect. I mean, if someone you respect gets on your ass, you're going to take those words to heart. You're right that we're more aware of feelings, which isn't really a bad thing. If some dip yelling at me hasn't earned my respect, I'm just gonna laugh in his face really. I've done that with my current boss. It's comical. Sort of the problem I did have with MJ is he felt his respect needed to be earned, which is true, but I think he also needed to earn that respect as well. Not so sure he saw that.

As for the rest, well, comparing players in different sports would be apples to bananas lol. LeBron is definitely the best of this generation.

It's just weird. The Bill Wennington vid that's actually on the landing page of chicitysports is interesting. Bill is defending Scottie and saying he was his favorite teammate, then he also says he's sort of the opposite of Jordan in the next line. I know he didn't directly say it, but doesn't that imply that Jordan was fairly far from Bill's favorite teammate?

I'd add, we can pick a part Horace's response, but in all this MJ has said nothing. He obviously had final say over the docuseries, so he put out exactly what he wanted and now we are seeing other people's reaction. MJ is fairly private, so there has been little/no comment from him on his teammates reaction. I agree that Horace looks like he's 'grasping at straws', but he has so much of a smaller platform and with MJ being silent it's almost like replying isn't worth his time.

You can't compare one person taking months/years to produce a great story with a team of writers to one 16 minute sit down interview. They just aren't the same in terms of explaining an idea or having the time to fully present an argument.

I agree that MJ certainly controlled the narrative, but I don't think enough time was really devoted to it either way where both guys are getting upset. Horace said his part in the docuseries. He just repeated it on the radio. Same with Scottie. I think they feel it makes them look worse than it really did. I mean, I guess I see Horace's persepective. A lot of people are just going to take MJ's word for it.

 

[Granada]

I don't know why Pippen is unhappy. Honestly, I don't think we got any new info in regards to him.

I agree we didn't get any new info, but I get why he's unhappy. I'm not saying that I think this personally, but he is somewhat portrayed as a primadonna in the doc -- sitting out with the migraine, sitting out when he didn't get the last shot, sitting out because of the contract dispute, sitting out because of the back, etc. So I get why he's upset.

Really, the only thing I fault him for was sitting out when Phil didn't give him the last shot. That is unacceptable. Maybe other Bulls -- including Jordan, who knows? -- had similar moments, but the doc seems to imply that it was only Pipp who had such moments.

In the beginning of the doc, Jordan said he wouldn't have been the player he was without Pippen -- which was a great moment in the series and well-deserved for Pippen -- but as the doc went on, it veered less favorably for Pippen.

 

[ijustposthere]

I agree we didn't get any new info, but I get why he's unhappy. I'm not saying that I think this personally, but he is somewhat portrayed as a primadonna in the doc -- sitting out with the migraine, sitting out when he didn't get the last shot, sitting out because of the contract dispute, sitting out because of the back, etc. So I get why he's upset.

Really, the only thing I fault him for was sitting out when Phil didn't give him the last shot. That is unacceptable. Maybe other Bulls -- including Jordan, who knows? -- had similar moments, but the doc seems to imply that it was only Pipp who had such moments.

In the beginning of the doc, Jordan said he wouldn't have been the player he was without Pippen -- which was a great moment in the series and well-deserved for Pippen -- but as the doc went on, it veered less favorably for Pippen.

But, like I said, that's always who Pip was. I thought it made him look better honestly. Most times, everyone came to bat for him. MJ didn't say he was lying about the migraine. Everyone believed he was telling the truth. Even the last shot thing, everyone came to bat for him. The only time MJ called him selfish was waiting for the surgery, but if I recall, he said he understood. I just think Pip is being Pip, quite honestly.

EDIT: Personally, I feel Pip overcame all that when he played through the back injury in Game 6. He gutted that shit out and made a pretty big shot down the stretch IIRC.