The Last Dance Thread

85Bears&Bulls

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Regarding Krause vs Jordan:

I believe the problem was that both were alpha win at all costs guys in their fields. The difference being that Krause was a short, fat, hunch back of notre dame looking man who was easy to pick on.

But if you look at what Krause did he is one of the greatest GM's of all time. I would put Red Auerbach (#1) and Jerry West (#2) miles ahead of Krause but Krause has a strong argument for #3 best GM of all time.

The Bulls and Jordan could have easily been a Dominique Wilkins/Atlanta Hawks Stan Kasten type forgotten footnote in history without Krause. It's easy to look back and say MJ was the greatest ever but that wasn't always the case. Those early years him and Dominique were at the same level and the debate was who was better and they weren't even considered anywhere near the Magic-Bird-Isaiah level. The difference between MJ and Dominique is that every year MJ would improve his game by 25% whereas Dominique would improve at a normal 5% clip. Cumulatively after 3-4 years the gap between the too widened because of MJ's continued accelerated skills development. The top 2 young teams before the Pistons broke through the Celtics and Lakers were the depth loaded Pistons and Nique's Atlanta Hawks. The Bulls weren't even in that conversation.

Even some of that accelerated skills development has to be attributed to Jerry who was the first to hire an elite level full time trainer, an elite level full time strength and conditioning coach, an elite level psychologist, etc. Krause also brought in George Gervin with coach Stan Albeck from San Antonio because he believed that Jordan could benefit from a 4 time scoring champion legend as a mentor and tutor. While the Iceman and Jordan didn't really interact, I believe that Jordan learned alot from watching Gervin during that season as Jordan had the foot injury and was watching from the bench. Jordan's hanging reverse layup especially, I believe he incorporated that into him game from the Iceman.

Jerry also was good at finding up and coming coaches like Doug Collins and Phil Jackson. And he was the one who brought in a Tex Winter that nobody wanted because Krause knew he needed a system to move the ball around instead of just relying on Jordan to score everything.

1985
You look at the moves Krause made and he swung for the fences but he hit some big home runs.
He drafted Charles Oakley in 85 from little known HBCU Virginia Union which wasn't known as Power Forward U (Terry Davis, Ben Wallace) till Oakley.

1986
86 Krause whiffed on Brad Sellers. But there really wasn't anyone good left at that point in the draft in the first round. Possibly John Salley who was more of a sixth man big man but I can understand Krause's logic. He was envisioning a 7-0 skilled small/power forward that could change the game which eventually happened with Derrick Coleman and then with Kevin Garnett to an even bigger level. Jordan wanted Johnny Dawkins, so when Sellers was drafted Jordan applied his patented bullying/competitiveness that he is famous for using against guys like Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr and Kwame Brown. Toni and Kerr were able to overcome that and became better because of it but guys like Sellers were destroyed by it and shriveled away into NBA oblivion.

I do wonder if Krause would have drafted pre ACL injury Ron Harper who went one pick a head to the Cavs. That may have been the player that Krause really wanted in that draft to fill a Pippen type roll.

1987
87 was the Pippen and Horace Grant year. The documentary plays down Krause's discovery of and drafting Pippen, saying everyone saw how good Pippen was and that pick was a no brainer. That is incorrect. If everyone knew how good he was then why did Phoenix take Armen Gilliam at #2, New Jersey, Dennis Hopson at #3 and the Clippers, Reggie Williams at #4? Gilliam was decent in the pros but Hopson and Williams were busts. Why did Seattle at #5 pass on Pippen and trade down with the Bulls to get Olden Polynice?

Pippen literally came out of nowhere. Not much was known about him in the days before internet and social media. News reporters and papers didn't even have pictures of him and there was little intel on him in the general public till the day before the draft. The Pippen pick was also acquired by Jerry's ability to dump cocaine addict 7 foot Juwon Oldham to New York for their pick which became the #8 pick. Krause then used that #8 pick to trade up for Seattle's #5 overall pick to get Pippen. You can see on the podcast below with Tim Floyd how Jerry had Al Vermiel test Pippen on their 3 ball drill that tests agility and lateral quickness and Pippen scored the highest ever on that drill. Krause also loved Pippen's length, enormous hands and skilled game. It is true that Pippen did really well at the Portsmouth and Chicago NBA Combine but nobody really was sure how good Pippen could be given his low level of NAIA competition except Jerry.

Krause:
"“We had the eighth and 10th picks in the draft. I learned that Sacramento, picking sixth, told everyone they were set on taking North Carolina point guard Kenny Smith. But I also found out they had cornered Pippen and asked him a bunch of questions and that Smith, who had a questionable knee in college, had taken (medical) tests for every team from Nos. 6 to 12 but us and Sacramento… "

The Bulls own pick #11 was used to select Horace Grant.

Krause also was cutting edge at the time in terms of wanting to meet the families of players, not only to find out the character of the family/player but also to size up the dad because he believed the size of the dad would tell how the drafted players frame would fill out.


Oakley Trade:
Krause then traded Oakley because they needed a big man. He could afford to do this because the 1987 pick of Horace Grant had panned out and Horace was going to be a star. The big man he went after was the "Teach", Bill Cartwright. Krause didnt' want to do this because Oakely was his first diamond in the rough but had to. This paid off because Cartwright practiced against Patrick Ewing all the time with the Knicks and one of his biggest strengths with the Bulls was being able to shutdown Ewing.

1988
By 88 the Bulls were actually good so they were no longer in the lottery. They were drafting #18. But another benefit of the Oakley-Cartwright trade was it allowed the Bulls to swap picks with the Knicks. So the Bulls moved up from #18 to #11.

This wasn't a great draft and I think the 4 people Krause was looking at were Rony Seikaly, 6-7 Willie Anderson, Dan Marjele and Will Perdue. I believe that Seikaly was who he wanted for big man support and Willie Anderson was a 6-7 Pippen type versatile wing but both went right before the Bulls #11. I believe in his gut he wanted to take small school unknown Dan Marjele who could have provided a John Paxson/Steve Kerr 3pt support with the additional benefit of being 6-5 and having better defense and athleticism than Pax/Kerr. In the end Krause wimped out and panicked (when Seikaly and Anderson both left the draft board right before the Bulls) and took the safe pick that filled the backup big man need and we threw our food and popcorn at the TV and Krause. Perdue was okay, not great but not a bust, your prototypical serviceable big man, meaning a backup who is not terrible and can provide you with six fouls. I think Krause always regretted not going with his gut and selecting Thunder Dan.

So in the end this move didn't really get the bonanza it could have been. Seikaly was a good pro and would have been an upgrade on Perdue. Willie Anderson was an above average wing until he broke his leg hitting his shin on the wooden sideboard of his mother's bed and was never the same. And Marjele would have been a phenomenal addition in a Pax/Steve Kerr off ball point guard role.

1989
The Bulls own pick was not good. But Jerry was able to dump cocaine addict Orlando Woolridge to New Jersey back in 1987 for what eventually became a lottery pick at #6. Unfortunately this was a weak draft so he bombed with Stacey King. Probably his all time worst move during the Jordan era. He probably would have taken JR Reid from UNC but Reid went to Charlotte one pick ahead. (Reid ended up just being a solid journeyman, anwyay) The rest of the selections were weak but Nick Anderson at #11, Tim Hardaway at #15 and Kemp at #17 would have been good picks. 6-5 220 lbs Nick Anderson could have been brought in to play a Ron Harper type off ball big point guard, backup shooting guard and backup small forward and anyone in the Chicagoland area who followed Simeon and the Flyin' Illini knew he was going to be a monster in the NBA.

I'm not sure if Tim Hardaway's ball dominant style would have meshed with MJ or the triangle. And Hardaway had a preexisting knee problem which eventually led to his ACL knee injury in the pros. Krause seemed to be weary of drafting guys with an injury history.

Kemp would have been a great pickup. The Bulls also had their own #18 pick but Kemp went one pick ahead at #17. So Bulls selected BJ Armstrong who was a solid pick. But if things had worked out a little differently this could have been Jerry's biggest coup, getting Nick Anderson at #6 and Shawn Kemp at #18 (where they could afford to gamble)

1990 and later
After 1989 the Bulls were too good so always had the last draft pick in the first round. And people were weary of trading with Krause because past trades had shown him always winning those trades by a wide margin. So it became impossible to dump Stacy King for a first round pick, though he tried. But Krause was still able to get Toni Kukoc in the 2nd round, and trade Will Perdue for Rodman.

MJ as GM
I think what makes matters worse between MJ and Jerry is that MJ is a horrible talent evaluator and probably would lose alot of local fantasy basketball leagues. I first remember this when MJ was really hyping up Kenny Williams when Jordan was playing for the Bulls saying he was the next Shawn Kemp. During his playing days MJ was good at identifying wing talent in particular (Ron Harper, Scott Burrell) primarily because he knew which players gave him trouble when he played against them.
But his draft record is incredibly spotty and would have gotten a normal GM fired a long time ago.

Bulls
Johnny Dawkins (Jordan was always upset that Dawkins was not picked over Sellers and believed Dawkins would be a perennnial All-Star but Dawkins was just an okay NBA point guard, nothing special)
Kenny Williams

Wizards:
Kwame Brown (#1 overall pick. Bust, Also I think Jordan's bullying/competitiveness contributed to killing any chance the high school kid of having a good career. The kid was mentally shot and PTSD before his career got started)
Jared Jeffries
Jarvis Hayes

Hornets:
Adam Morrison (Bust)
DJ Augustin
Brandon Wright
Gerald Henderson
Kemba Walker (Good pick)
MKG (Bust)
Cody Zeller (Bust)
Noah Vonleh (Bust)
Frank Kaminsky (Bust)
Malachi Richardson
Malik Monk
Shigeous-Alexander (Good pick)
PJ Anderson

So as competitive as MJ self admittedly is, his hate for Jerry only is exacerbated due to the fact that Jerry has a much better track record as a GM compared to Jordan as GM.

Back to Krause:
In retrospect he was a master trader in dumping guys for picks and also swung for the fences. And hit enough home runs to create a dynasty. I think eventually, better and better GM's came into the league due to the trailblazing example that Krause started as well as the fact that the NBA was now a global force and alot of money was involved. (As opposed to when Krause came in the league when the NBA was a couple years removed from getting back on live TV in the US). It became harder for Krause after Jordan, cause not only was Jordan gone but the GM level in the league improved (much like big shooting guards became the norm after Jordan. *In the early days Jordan at 6-6 toward over most shooting guards who were in the 6-2 range. By the time of his retirement all the shooting guards were 6-4 to 6-7), and also people were just too weary of trading with Krause because Krause was so good.

Red Auerbach:
This is what makes Red Auerbach #1 because GM's still continually traded with Auerbach even though Auerbach had decades of history fleecing other GMs' in trades. Even in his old age Auerbach was able to draft Larry Bird as a junior eligible who came back for his senior year of college, trade the overall #1 (which became Joe Barry Carroll) for Robert Parish and the #3 (became Kevin McHale), and traded Gerald Henderson for what became the #2 pick (Len Bias). In fact I believe that Auerbach was Krause's hero and Krause tried to emulate everything Auerback did including the buy low, sell high philosophy which meant always trying to trade Pippen.

Krause' Legacy:
If things had fallen a little more in place Krause conceivably could have had the below list of players. These were all realistically achievable moves:
(I am not including guys like Karl Malone who nobody saw coming)

Off Ball 3pt Shooting Point Guard: Dan Marjele instead of Pax/Kerr
Shooting Guard: Jordan
Wing/Off Ball PG: Nick Anderson
Wing/Off Ball PG: Pre ACL Ron Harper
Small Forward: Pippen
Power Forward: Shawn Kemp
Power Forward: Horace Grant/Rodman
Center: Same

Which is actually really scary if you think about it. Instead he just had to "settle" for being a 6 time World Championship dynasty.
 
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85Bears&Bulls

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Van Horn was good for several years, though that was his ceiling. Never an All-Star caliber player and faded by the 6th year of his career. The rest of the lottery are pretty much busts if you're expecting stars or 3rd option players out of any of them. Some had good role player careers like Austin Croshere.

Yeah Croshere was okay. But guys like that can be picked up via free agency or trade pretty easily. In the draft you want to hit a home run with a guy with a franchise player type ceiling
 

JimJohnson

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6 rings was perfect. The cracks were starting to show during the 6th title run. Jordan wasn't the same athletically and Pippen had back problems. A 7th run they would have had to face a more experienced and even better Pacer team (the Bulls toughest opponent during the 6 rings) that could have overcome the mountain top much like the Bulls did to the Pistons and the Pistons did to the Celtics). The Knicks were also peaking and San Antonio with Tim Duncan and still decent David Robinson would have been a matchup problem for Chicago. (and we are assuming all this in a scenario where the cigar cutting finger incident didn't happen)

I think the fact that they had a film crew follow them around during the sixth title run sealed the fate that it was over if they won. Especially with the game 6 winning shot on Byron Russell it was doubtful that they could have had a better storybook ending than that. And not winning it all in the 7 ring title run could have tarnished their legacy

Cracks? What you talking bout Willis? They won 62 games and that was without Pippen for the first half of the season. The Pacers had perhaps their best team ever that year and still couldn't beat the Bulls.

Spurs would have been a huge test in 99 but Bulls would have made the Finals for sure. And there would be zero shame in losing to that Spurs team that was young and just beginning their run of greatness.

Also, it should be noted that 98-99 was a strike shortened season which would have benefited an aging Bulls team. And Pippen was also completely healthy that season. So Bulls likely would have had a great chance for a 7th.
 

anotheridiot

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Cracks? What you talking bout Willis? They won 62 games and that was without Pippen for the first half of the season. The Pacers had perhaps their best team ever that year and still couldn't beat the Bulls.

Spurs would have been a huge test in 99 but Bulls would have made the Finals for sure. And there would be zero shame in losing to that Spurs team that was young and just beginning their run of greatness.

Also, it should be noted that 98-99 was a strike shortened season which would have benefited an aging Bulls team. And Pippen was also completely healthy that season. So Bulls likely would have had a great chance for a 7th.

watching game 6 film again, look at that supporting cast, Kerr, Buechler, Longly, Simpkins, Randy brown remember Rusty LaRue? Bulls basically played everyone 5 on 4 with Jordan, Pippen, Harper and Rodman being the 4. It was amazing they won in 98.
 

greg23

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watching game 6 film again, look at that supporting cast, Kerr, Buechler, Longly, Simpkins, Randy brown remember Rusty LaRue? Bulls basically played everyone 5 on 4 with Jordan, Pippen, Harper and Rodman being the 4. It was amazing they won in 98.

Toni Kukoc says hello
 

playthrough2001

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My favorite teams
  1. Chicago White Sox
  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
  1. Central Florida Knights
  2. TCU Horned Frogs
Regarding Krause vs Jordan:

I believe the problem was that both were alpha win at all costs guys in their fields. The difference being that Krause was a short, fat, hunch back of notre dame looking man who was easy to pick on.

But if you look at what Krause did he is one of the greatest GM's of all time. I would put Red Auerbach (#1) and Jerry West (#2) miles ahead of Krause but Krause has a strong argument for #3 best GM of all time.

The Bulls and Jordan could have easily been a Dominique Wilkins/Atlanta Hawks Stan Kasten type forgotten footnote in history without Krause. It's easy to look back and say MJ was the greatest ever but that wasn't always the case. Those early years him and Dominique were at the same level and the debate was who was better and they weren't even considered anywhere near the Magic-Bird-Isaiah level. The difference between MJ and Dominique is that every year MJ would improve his game by 25% whereas Dominique would improve at a normal 5% clip. Cumulatively after 3-4 years the gap between the too widened because of MJ's continued accelerated skills development. The top 2 young teams before the Pistons broke through the Celtics and Lakers were the depth loaded Pistons and Nique's Atlanta Hawks. The Bulls weren't even in that conversation.

Even some of that accelerated skills development has to be attributed to Jerry who was the first to hire an elite level full time trainer, an elite level full time strength and conditioning coach, an elite level psychologist, etc. Krause also brought in George Gervin with coach Stan Albeck from San Antonio because he believed that Jordan could benefit from a 4 time scoring champion legend as a mentor and tutor. While the Iceman and Jordan didn't really interact, I believe that Jordan learned alot from watching Gervin during that season as Jordan had the foot injury and was watching from the bench. Jordan's hanging reverse layup especially, I believe he incorporated that into him game from the Iceman.

Jerry also was good at finding up and coming coaches like Doug Collins and Phil Jackson. And he was the one who brought in a Tex Winter that nobody wanted because Krause knew he needed a system to move the ball around instead of just relying on Jordan to score everything.

1985
You look at the moves Krause made and he swung for the fences but he hit some big home runs.
He drafted Charles Oakley in 85 from little known HBCU Virginia Union which wasn't known as Power Forward U (Terry Davis, Ben Wallace) till Oakley.

1986
86 Krause whiffed on Brad Sellers. But there really wasn't anyone good left at that point in the draft in the first round. Possibly John Salley who was more of a sixth man big man but I can understand Krause's logic. He was envisioning a 7-0 skilled small/power forward that could change the game which eventually happened with Derrick Coleman and then with Kevin Garnett to an even bigger level. Jordan wanted Johnny Dawkins, so when Sellers was drafted Jordan applied his patented bullying/competitiveness that he is famous for using against guys like Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr and Kwame Brown. Toni and Kerr were able to overcome that and became better because of it but guys like Sellers were destroyed by it and shriveled away into NBA oblivion.

I do wonder if Krause would have drafted pre ACL injury Ron Harper who went one pick a head to the Cavs. That may have been the player that Krause really wanted in that draft to fill a Pippen type roll.

1987
87 was the Pippen and Horace Grant year. The documentary plays down Krause's discovery of and drafting Pippen, saying everyone saw how good Pippen was and that pick was a no brainer. That is incorrect. If everyone knew how good he was then why did Phoenix take Armen Gilliam at #2, New Jersey, Dennis Hopson at #3 and the Clippers, Reggie Williams at #4? Gilliam was decent in the pros but Hopson and Williams were busts. Why did Seattle at #5 pass on Pippen and trade down with the Bulls to get Olden Polynice?

Pippen literally came out of nowhere. Not much was known about him in the days before internet and social media. News reporters and papers didn't even have pictures of him and there was little intel on him in the general public till the day before the draft. The Pippen pick was also acquired by Jerry's ability to dump cocaine addict 7 foot Juwon Oldham to New York for their pick which became the #8 pick. Krause then used that #8 pick to trade up for Seattle's #5 overall pick to get Pippen. You can see on the podcast below with Tim Floyd how Jerry had Al Vermiel test Pippen on their 3 ball drill that tests agility and lateral quickness and Pippen scored the highest ever on that drill. Krause also loved Pippen's length, enormous hands and skilled game. It is true that Pippen did really well at the Portsmouth and Chicago NBA Combine but nobody really was sure how good Pippen could be given his low level of NAIA competition except Jerry.

Krause:
"“We had the eighth and 10th picks in the draft. I learned that Sacramento, picking sixth, told everyone they were set on taking North Carolina point guard Kenny Smith. But I also found out they had cornered Pippen and asked him a bunch of questions and that Smith, who had a questionable knee in college, had taken (medical) tests for every team from Nos. 6 to 12 but us and Sacramento… "

The Bulls own pick #11 was used to select Horace Grant.

Krause also was cutting edge at the time in terms of wanting to meet the families of players, not only to find out the character of the family/player but also to size up the dad because he believed the size of the dad would tell how the drafted players frame would fill out.


Oakley Trade:
Krause then traded Oakley because they needed a big man. He could afford to do this because the 1987 pick of Horace Grant had panned out and Horace was going to be a star. The big man he went after was the "Teach", Bill Cartwright. Krause didnt' want to do this because Oakely was his first diamond in the rough but had to. This paid off because Cartwright practiced against Patrick Ewing all the time with the Knicks and one of his biggest strengths with the Bulls was being able to shutdown Ewing.

1988
By 88 the Bulls were actually good so they were no longer in the lottery. They were drafting #18. But another benefit of the Oakley-Cartwright trade was it allowed the Bulls to swap picks with the Knicks. So the Bulls moved up from #18 to #11.

This wasn't a great draft and I think the 4 people Krause was looking at were Rony Seikaly, 6-7 Willie Anderson, Dan Marjele and Will Perdue. I believe that Seikaly was who he wanted for big man support and Willie Anderson was a 6-7 Pippen type versatile wing but both went right before the Bulls #11. I believe in his gut he wanted to take small school unknown Dan Marjele who could have provided a John Paxson/Steve Kerr 3pt support with the additional benefit of being 6-5 and having better defense and athleticism than Pax/Kerr. In the end Krause wimped out and panicked (when Seikaly and Anderson both left the draft board right before the Bulls) and took the safe pick that filled the backup big man need and we threw our food and popcorn at the TV and Krause. Perdue was okay, not great but not a bust, your prototypical serviceable big man, meaning a backup who is not terrible and can provide you with six fouls. I think Krause always regretted not going with his gut and selecting Thunder Dan.

So in the end this move didn't really get the bonanza it could have been. Seikaly was a good pro and would have been an upgrade on Perdue. Willie Anderson was an above average wing until he broke his leg hitting his shin on the wooden sideboard of his mother's bed and was never the same. And Marjele would have been a phenomenal addition in a Pax/Steve Kerr off ball point guard role.

1989
The Bulls own pick was not good. But Jerry was able to dump cocaine addict Orlando Woolridge to New Jersey back in 1987 for what eventually became a lottery pick at #6. Unfortunately this was a weak draft so he bombed with Stacey King. Probably his all time worst move during the Jordan era. He probably would have taken JR Reid from UNC but Reid went to Charlotte one pick ahead. (Reid ended up just being a solid journeyman, anwyay) The rest of the selections were weak but Nick Anderson at #11, Tim Hardaway at #15 and Kemp at #17 would have been good picks. 6-5 220 lbs Nick Anderson could have been brought in to play a Ron Harper type off ball big point guard, backup shooting guard and backup small forward and anyone in the Chicagoland area who followed Simeon and the Flyin' Illini knew he was going to be a monster in the NBA.

I'm not sure if Tim Hardaway's ball dominant style would have meshed with MJ or the triangle. And Hardaway had a preexisting knee problem which eventually led to his ACL knee injury in the pros. Krause seemed to be weary of drafting guys with an injury history.

Kemp would have been a great pickup. The Bulls also had their own #18 pick but Kemp went one pick ahead at #17. So Bulls selected BJ Armstrong who was a solid pick. But if things had worked out a little differently this could have been Jerry's biggest coup, getting Nick Anderson at #6 and Shawn Kemp at #18 (where they could afford to gamble)

1990 and later
After 1989 the Bulls were too good so always had the last draft pick in the first round. And people were weary of trading with Krause because past trades had shown him always winning those trades by a wide margin. So it became impossible to dump Stacy King for a first round pick, though he tried. But Krause was still able to get Toni Kukoc in the 2nd round, and trade Will Perdue for Rodman.

MJ as GM
I think what makes matters worse between MJ and Jerry is that MJ is a horrible talent evaluator and probably would lose alot of local fantasy basketball leagues. I first remember this when MJ was really hyping up Kenny Williams when Jordan was playing for the Bulls saying he was the next Shawn Kemp. During his playing days MJ was good at identifying wing talent in particular (Ron Harper, Scott Burrell) primarily because he knew which players gave him trouble when he played against them.
But his draft record is incredibly spotty and would have gotten a normal GM fired a long time ago.

Bulls
Johnny Dawkins (Jordan was always upset that Dawkins was not picked over Sellers and believed Dawkins would be a perennnial All-Star but Dawkins was just an okay NBA point guard, nothing special)
Kenny Williams

Wizards:
Kwame Brown (#1 overall pick. Bust, Also I think Jordan's bullying/competitiveness contributed to killing any chance the high school kid of having a good career. The kid was mentally shot and PTSD before his career got started)
Jared Jeffries
Jarvis Hayes

Hornets:
Adam Morrison (Bust)
DJ Augustin
Brandon Wright
Gerald Henderson
Kemba Walker (Good pick)
MKG (Bust)
Cody Zeller (Bust)
Noah Vonleh (Bust)
Frank Kaminsky (Bust)
Malachi Richardson
Malik Monk
Shigeous-Alexander (Good pick)
PJ Anderson

So as competitive as MJ self admittedly is, his hate for Jerry only is exacerbated due to the fact that Jerry has a much better track record as a GM compared to Jordan as GM.

Back to Krause:
In retrospect he was a master trader in dumping guys for picks and also swung for the fences. And hit enough home runs to create a dynasty. I think eventually, better and better GM's came into the league due to the trailblazing example that Krause started as well as the fact that the NBA was now a global force and alot of money was involved. (As opposed to when Krause came in the league when the NBA was a couple years removed from getting back on live TV in the US). It became harder for Krause after Jordan, cause not only was Jordan gone but the GM level in the league improved (much like big shooting guards became the norm after Jordan. *In the early days Jordan at 6-6 toward over most shooting guards who were in the 6-2 range. By the time of his retirement all the shooting guards were 6-4 to 6-7), and also people were just too weary of trading with Krause because Krause was so good.

Red Auerbach:
This is what makes Red Auerbach #1 because GM's still continually traded with Auerbach even though Auerbach had decades of history fleecing other GMs' in trades. Even in his old age Auerbach was able to draft Larry Bird as a junior eligible who came back for his senior year of college, trade the overall #1 (which became Joe Barry Carroll) for Robert Parish and the #3 (became Kevin McHale), and traded Gerald Henderson for what became the #2 pick (Len Bias). In fact I believe that Auerbach was Krause's hero and Krause tried to emulate everything Auerback did including the buy low, sell high philosophy which meant always trying to trade Pippen.

Krause' Legacy:
If things had fallen a little more in place Krause conceivably could have had the below list of players. These were all realistically achievable moves:
(I am not including guys like Karl Malone who nobody saw coming)

Off Ball 3pt Shooting Point Guard: Dan Marjele instead of Pax/Kerr
Shooting Guard: Jordan
Wing/Off Ball PG: Nick Anderson
Wing/Off Ball PG: Pre ACL Ron Harper
Small Forward: Pippen
Power Forward: Shawn Kemp
Power Forward: Horace Grant/Rodman
Center: Same

Which is actually really scary if you think about it. Instead he just had to "settle" for being a 6 time World Championship dynasty.

The 1995 draft was a huge whiff by Krause. He was staring at Michael Finley at 20 and he would have been an amazing fit. Instead he drafted Jason Caffey who was an absolute stiff.

Finley would have given them another highly athletic 6’7” slasher/scorer that could defend multiple positions. Having him, Harper, Jordan and Pippen would have almost been unfair.

He was a local stud that played at Proviso East and he went the very next pick to Phoenix. Passing on him blew my mind.
 

85Bears&Bulls

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The 1995 draft was a huge whiff by Krause. He was staring at Michael Finley at 20 and he would have been an amazing fit. Instead he drafted Jason Caffey who was an absolute stiff.

Finley would have given them another highly athletic 6’7” slasher/scorer that could defend multiple positions. Having him, Harper, Jordan and Pippen would have almost been unfair.

He was a local stud that played at Proviso East and he went the very next pick to Phoenix. Passing on him blew my mind.

We're on the same page on that. I wanted Finley badly and Jason Caffey was an undersized tweener trash and it was upsetting that we passed on Finley but I don't fault Jerry for that one because there must of been a reason Finley slid so far in the draft and nobody wanted him. Everyone could see that he had the skills, size and athleticism. Krause was also trying to fill a positional need since they had let Horace Grant leave (in order to tank and so Reinsdorf could save money) thinking Jordan was sticking with baseball. But when the baseball strike happened and Jordan came back and they were exposed at power forward against Orlando, that became a top priority.

Caffey was drafted on June 28th 1995.
The Purdue-Rodman trade happened on Oct 3rd 1995 right before training camp.
So this means that they realized through the summer league that Dicky Simpkins (hadn't progressed) and Jason Caffey was a bonafide bust on arrival.

Obviously Rodman worked out, but what if it hadn't? What if Rodman had continued to be a basektcase like he was in San Antonio (not listening to Popovitch) or if Rodman was washed up mentally or physically. Was there a plan B other than Rodman, I'm not sure that there was a power forward floating around on the waiver wire. You would have had to dangle Toni Kukoc and his inflated salary in a trade with someone stupid enough to give up a good power forward. Even in that best case scenario you get a solid power forward but now you are missing Kukoc. When you think of the possible power forward void, the Rodman-Perdue trade was pivotal and really a team effort with Krause, MJ, Pippen, and Phil to make Rodman by in to the team.
 

greg23

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He was great in the 80's....then let his success get to his expanding gut.

After nailing Kukoc in 90 (who didnt appear for 3 years I believe) the fat guy in a little suit became enamored with power forward who were stiffs.....the list is incredibly sickening and still baffling how he focused on the same position each year

91 mark randall
92 byron Houston
93 corey blount
94 Dickie simkins
95 jason caffey
96 travis knight

6 straight whiffs at pw when there were guards and wings he could have nailed and injected youth and athleticism during thos years.

Hard to bitch because he won again from 95/96-97/98 but it was because of guys that came from drafts (his or trades/signings of others) in the 80's and mainly Jordan/Pippen
 

nbafan23

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He was great in the 80's....then let his success get to his expanding gut.

After nailing Kukoc in 90 (who didnt appear for 3 years I believe) the fat guy in a little suit became enamored with power forward who were stiffs.....the list is incredibly sickening and still baffling how he focused on the same position each year

91 mark randall
92 byron Houston
93 corey blount
94 Dickie simkins
95 jason caffey
96 travis knight

6 straight whiffs at pw when there were guards and wings he could have nailed and injected youth and athleticism during thos years.

Hard to bitch because he won again from 95/96-97/98 but it was because of guys that came from drafts (his or trades/signings of others) in the 80's and mainly Jordan/Pippen
97 Keith Booth
Passed up on the likes of P.J. Brown, Finley, Ben Wallace, and with the point guards getting older i would go with Anthony Johnson in 97. Really could draft Othello Harrington as a backup big and sign Ben Wallace after the 96 draft because nobody seen that coming.
 

85Bears&Bulls

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He was great in the 80's....then let his success get to his expanding gut.

After nailing Kukoc in 90 (who didnt appear for 3 years I believe) the fat guy in a little suit became enamored with power forward who were stiffs.....the list is incredibly sickening and still baffling how he focused on the same position each year

91 mark randall
92 byron Houston
93 corey blount
94 Dickie simkins
95 jason caffey
96 travis knight

6 straight whiffs at pw when there were guards and wings he could have nailed and injected youth and athleticism during thos years.

Hard to bitch because he won again from 95/96-97/98 but it was because of guys that came from drafts (his or trades/signings of others) in the 80's and mainly Jordan/Pippen

Like I said, hard to draft when you are always picking between 20-30 because you are the best team in the league.
Certain GM's had the knack for finding guys late in the draft. Among them Jerry West with AC Green (23), Vlade (26), Elden Campbell (27), Van Exel (37), Derrick Fisher (24), Devean George, Luke Walton (32) and Jack McCloskey but in general most of the guys drafted after 20 don't pan out.

And like you said his bad drafting/low picks coincide with 6 NBA championships so hard to argue with that success.
 

85Bears&Bulls

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97 Keith Booth
Passed up on the likes of P.J. Brown, Finley, Ben Wallace, and with the point guards getting older i would go with Anthony Johnson in 97. Really could draft Othello Harrington as a backup big and sign Ben Wallace after the 96 draft because nobody seen that coming.
Yeah, but Ben Wallace wasn't an instant success. You could see the talent was there in a Dale Davis, Dennis Rodman type mode with the Wizards but he didn't start there or play alot of minutes and the Wizards really didn't think much of him and let him go to Orlando. Then Orlando didn't think much of him and let him go to Detroit.

It's like Chauncey Billups. On paper now that looks like a great pick for Rick Pitino and the Celtics at #3 overall but the fact was the Celtics gave up on him and 3 other teams gave up on him before he proved his worth with the Pistons on team #5. And so for the Celtics that pick was a huge bust.
 

nbafan23

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Yeah, but Ben Wallace wasn't an instant success. You could see the talent was there in a Dale Davis, Dennis Rodman type mode with the Wizards but he didn't start there or play alot of minutes and the Wizards really didn't think much of him and let him go to Orlando. Then Orlando didn't think much of him and let him go to Detroit.

It's like Chauncey Billups. On paper now that looks like a great pick for Rick Pitino and the Celtics at #3 overall but the fact was the Celtics gave up on him and 3 other teams gave up on him before he proved his worth with the Pistons on team #5. And so for the Celtics that pick was a huge bust.
Like I said. Nobody saw Wallace coming. Didn't start coming into his own till the strike season of 99.
 

85Bears&Bulls

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Like I said. Nobody saw Wallace coming. Didn't start coming into his own till the strike season of 99.

I actually did. Was watching a Celtics-Wizards game. He was playing garbage minutes and was matched up with Andrew DeClercq but you could see that he had Rodman/Dale Davis type athleticism and motor and that was going to translate well in the league.
 

nbafan23

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I actually did. Was watching a Celtics-Wizards game. He was playing garbage minutes and was matched up with Andrew DeClercq but you could see that he had Rodman/Dale Davis type athleticism and motor and that was going to translate well in the league.
Surprised Oakley didn't try talking the knicks into signing/drafting in 96 him with that frontcourt beinf older at the time.
 

greg23

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97 Keith Booth
Passed up on the likes of P.J. Brown, Finley, Ben Wallace, and with the point guards getting older i would go with Anthony Johnson in 97. Really could draft Othello Harrington as a backup big and sign Ben Wallace after the 96 draft because nobody seen that coming.

Another bust; but finally a pick that wasn't a PF
 

greg23

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Like I said, hard to draft when you are always picking between 20-30 because you are the best team in the league.
Certain GM's had the knack for finding guys late in the draft. Among them Jerry West with AC Green (23), Vlade (26), Elden Campbell (27), Van Exel (37), Derrick Fisher (24), Devean George, Luke Walton (32) and Jack McCloskey but in general most of the guys drafted after 20 don't pan out.

And like you said his bad drafting/low picks coincide with 6 NBA championships so hard to argue with that success.

True....but....you should be drafting for upside or a specific niche/role.....not sure how drafting 6 straight PF fits either model......draft a pg, sg, sf...if he had; there were a few gems or role players he could have found vs the nothingness he got drafting at the same position 6 straight years.
 

85Bears&Bulls

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Surprised Oakley didn't try talking the knicks into signing/drafting in 96 him with that frontcourt beinf older at the time.

I'm sure Oakley tried.
Knicks wasted their 3 #1 picks on forwards Syracuse's John Wallace, Walter McCarty and Donate Jones.
To be fair though, this was a loaded draft, and Ben Wallace was considered a little undersized as a 6-7 (his real height) power forward/center and Ben was also unfortunate that he had to compete with high school picks and eurostash picks. This was a really good draft, with great value with these picks that all became starters or rotation players: Kobe at #13, Peja #14, Steve Nash at #15, Jermaine O'Neal #17, Ilgauskas #20, Derrick Fisher #24, JYD #26, Othella Harrington #30, Malik Rose #44, Shandon Anderson #54.


 

85Bears&Bulls

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Surprised Oakley didn't try talking the knicks into signing/drafting in 96 him with that frontcourt beinf older at the time.

So this is interesting and something I didn't know, his friendship and mentorship by Oak starts even before Virginia Union, in fact the reason Ben went to Virginia Union was on the advice of Oakley:

"The only way for him to continue playing basketball was to play for Cuyahoga Community College in Ohio. His defensive impact allowed him to transfer to Virginia Union University after a recommendation from his friend and basketball mentor, Charles Oakley. Big Ben helped lead the team to the Division II Final Four. They finished with a 28-3 record. "

And it appears to go even further than that. They first met in 1991 in high school. So going to Cuyahoga CC in Cleveland may not have been a coincidence either:
"Wallace, a native of White Hall, Ala., attended a camp run by Oakley roughly 10 years ago. Though an 11-year age difference existed, the two bonded and stayed in touch when Wallace went to Cuyahoga Community College in Oakley's hometown of Cleveland. "

Oakley high school camp meeting:
 
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nbafan23

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I'm sure Oakley tried.
Knicks wasted their 3 #1 picks on forwards Syracuse's John Wallace, Walter McCarty and Donate Jones.
To be fair though, this was a loaded draft, and Ben Wallace was considered a little undersized as a 6-7 (his real height) power forward/center and Ben was also unfortunate that he had to compete with high school picks and eurostash picks. This was a really good draft, with great value with these picks that all became starters or rotation players: Kobe at #13, Peja #14, Steve Nash at #15, Jermaine O'Neal #17, Ilgauskas #20, Derrick Fisher #24, JYD #26, Othella Harrington #30, Malik Rose #44, Shandon Anderson #54.


Was just a steal in the end.
 

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