The Walking Dead

Sculpt

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Yeah Negan kills the Alpha, but only after porking her and then trying to bond with her daughter over it.

Then Negan sees Maggie and sheepishly waves with a "Hey Maggie" like he never beat her man into a puddle of goo.

It's not even really all about Negan. TWD has lost its brutality and I want it back. We are too far in for me to care about all this emotional crap anymore. It's survival horror...I want a body count.
"TWD has lost its brutality". Yeah, pretty much. It's almost never a horror genre ep anymore.

Without changing the history of the show, I'm not sure how you wanted Negan to respond to Maggie. But I get you probably would've changed the history of the show. Like Negan should be dead or escaped before execution.

This shit is still going? I lost interest when Negan was the bad guy and haven't watched since. Should I re-visit?
It depends why you stopped watching when Negan was the bad guy. If you want more soap and less Negan violence, then yeah, you should revisit. The general 1st season, the Terminus train section "No Sanctuary", and Negan's reign of terror were probably the best TWD sections.
 

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I'm not sure how you wanted Negan to respond to Maggie

Maybe something more like:

90a48045e3ca6a9f84c45a8a1d21b35d.gif


But I get you probably would've changed the history of the show. Like Negan should be dead or escaped before execution

What are you even talking about with this "changing the history of the show"??? Too much Tucker???

I just liked Negan better as an asshole. Not some sort of weird uncle to the lovechild of Lori Grimes.
 

airtime143

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Yeah Negan kills the Alpha, but only after porking her and then trying to bond with her daughter over it.

Then Negan sees Maggie and sheepishly waves with a "Hey Maggie" like he never beat her man into a puddle of goo.

It's not even really all about Negan. TWD has lost it's brutality and I want it back. We are too far in for me to care about all this emotional crap anymore. It's survival horror...I want a body count.

I can pinpoint the exact moment it started going down the crapper for me...

It was the saviors being defeated by Eugene.

That was some anti climatic shit.
The premise is ok, threw me for a loop, but not a deserving ending for the saviors.
They went out with a whimper.

There was a little hope for a return to the nasty world when oceanside started wasting saviors... but that was just a short distraction.


Ricks "death" was stupid as hell. it was ultimately meaningless.

They were well aware they were headed to the whisperer storyline at that point... why the fuck wouldnt the showrunners tie the death of rick to the whisperers?
Alpha and Beta were active at that point in time, why not make the herd that fucks rick up inexplicably craftier than a typical herd?

Tie the shit together. Leave us unsettled about the herd tracking him with no indication that there are whisperers amongst it. Make us think the zombie threat is changing and getting more dangerous.
More importantly, give the whisperers a reason to target the communities-
Blowing up the bridge decimates their herd, kills a shit ton of their people, and in the interim years they are collecting a ridiculous mega herd to fuck the communities up... and years later they grow stronger than they ever would have with vengeance in mind.

That would have given the whisperers motivation beyond just being insane. It would have given the viewer a reason to really be unsettled about Negan joining them- After all, if we find out the reason they are going after the communities is because rick wasted their herd and a ton of their people, You could see Negan getting all sorts of hard for Alpha knowing she wasted rick and ultimately led to his freedom.
We would buy a turncoat Negan, we would have motivation, and we would have an actual justified reason for them torturing the communities before killing them off.


... but instead the motivation is a crazy mother trying to reclaim her daughter from society, that ended with a less than satisfying final showdown.

What we had from the Saviors conclusion on is a random, stupid death of the main character followed by family drama with zombies in the background.

Done correctly we could have had a creepy escalation of herd intelligence followed by vengeance from a group that wouldnt exist in a massive form were it not for rick blowing the bridge.

I totally would have bought that, because series long rick repeatedly tries to do the right thing, steps in shit, and causes an absolute shitstorm.
They should have followed that trend.
 

Penny Traitor

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I can pinpoint the exact moment it started going down the crapper for me...

Yeah, your entire post nails it nicely.

I could almost live with the way the Saviors went out, but it feels like they completely dropped the ball with the Whisperers' entire narrative. I would have enjoyed you more in that writer's room than the severely anticlimactic run of episodes I sat through the last couple of years.

The Alpha & The Beta should have been the scariest shit this show has seen yet. Not just a placeholder while Maggie took another gig with ABC.
 

airtime143

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Yeah, your entire post nails it nicely.

I could almost live with the way the Saviors went out, but it feels like they completely dropped the ball with the Whisperers' entire narrative. I would have enjoyed you more in that writer's room than the severely anticlimactic run of episodes I sat through the last couple of years.

The Alpha & The Beta should have been the scariest shit this show has seen yet. Not just a placeholder while Maggie took another gig with ABC.

Alpha and Beta, with crazy to spare, on a warpath for a specific reason. No wanting to live with the communities compartmentalized, not just wanting to eliminate them for an esoteric worldview... wanting to torture and abuse them before destroying them for costing them years of work.

Make alpha more attached to the daughter instead of having her be a whack job, and cause unbridled rage for her knowing the daughter is trying to live a nice life with the people who fucked her over... here mere presence preventing the torture she wants to unleash.
Have her catch wanderers from the communities periodically and fuck them up in the worst way possible and put the bodies on display. The heads on spikes should have just been the tip of the iceberg.

That makes lydia fleeing a terrifying moment for the communities (and viewer) rather than "thank god that annoying bitch is gone.

And it makes it a genuine pleasure to see Negan behead Alpha out of the blue, and goes a long way towards bringing you around on Negan as a viewer... Him escaping himself and bringing alphas head back becomes a spectacular peace offering rather than just paying a debt to carol.
 

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just paying a debt to carol.

Speaking of failed narratives...Carol.

I loved pairing her with Ezekiel and finally becoming this strong leader I assumed we had been arcing towards with her for years.

The Alpha vs Queen Carol practically writes itself and instead they just devolve both into some "broken mother" archetype for no other reason than to bore me with subtext rather than thrill me with genuine conflict.

L
A
M
E
 

airtime143

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The original showrunners were far better at telling stories for the long haul and hiding easter eggs.

As a matter of fact, I would be willing to bet the original braintrust would have scattered whisperers all over hordes long before they became a thing, and retroactively you would be able to pick them out whispering to each other of opening doors.

somewhere along the way the new guard decided the Sam and Diane dynamic along with weak moral crises were the easy way to go.

I miss the days of Rick suffering the "careful what you wish for" routine. Dude was repeatedly out of the frying pan and in to the fire, and it was fun to watch.

Now, it is scattershot filler limping towards the comic end with a slight twist due to lincolns availability.

I would like to blame it on the coronavirus, but we all saw it long before that.
 

Sculpt

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Maybe something more like:

90a48045e3ca6a9f84c45a8a1d21b35d.gif




What are you even talking about with this "changing the history of the show"??? Too much Tucker???

I just liked Negan better as an asshole. Not some sort of weird uncle to the lovechild of Lori Grimes.
LOL! Gotcha, that would have been a hilarious response to Maggie at that moment! I wish he did that too. It would have been totally unexpected, and a welcome change to the direction of the show.

Oh, what I meant by, "you probably would've changed the history of the show. Like Negan should be dead or escaped before execution." is: we know the show writers would not have had Negan lick his lips at Maggie cause they already changed him to a reformed "Kind Uncle Negan". That's the history of Negan from his defeat up to the point of meeting Maggie again. Negan's change to Kind Uncle Negan is the history you'd change... you would have rather they had Maggie sneak in and kill him, or have Negan escape, the day after Rick defeated him. Or something like that.
 
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Penny Traitor

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Negan's change to Kind Uncle Negan is the history you'd change...

At first I loved the idea of Negan & Judith getting all buddy/buddy if it led to an eventual shot of Rick Grimes seeing Judith for the first time in a decade...and she was hugging Uncle Negan.

That would have been worth it. The storyline they did give them was tepid & went nowhere.

If I could change any "history" of the show...I would simply do a better job with the entire story since the time jump they did. It was a solid idea, but has been executed poorly on several key points and the show has been less enjoyable because of it IMO.
 

airtime143

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Here's Negan is worth the watch.

I went in to it skeptical given Kangs penchant for uneeded character depth.

I figured there would be a bunch of unnecessary fluff to give everyone feels for negan.

Surprisingly, who he was and what went down seems a perfectly seamless origin for the negan we were introduced to on the show.

Well worth a watch.
 

Sculpt

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Here's Negan is worth the watch.

I went in to it skeptical given Kangs penchant for uneeded character depth.

I figured there would be a bunch of unnecessary fluff to give everyone feels for negan.

Surprisingly, who he was and what went down seems a perfectly seamless origin for the negan we were introduced to on the show.

Well worth a watch.
I was hoping for something with a bigger scale, like a full launch into the Saviors, but this was decent. I get what the story says about him seeing red, and no consequences post zombieday, but I'm not sure the ep was really all that successful in explaining him.

So what does it mean that he burned the bat and said to the spirit of Lucille, "And I am gonna do your fighting for you."?
And what does it mean that he went back to Alexandria and stared down Maggie?
 
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airtime143

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I was hoping for something with a bigger scale, like a full launch into the Saviors, but this was decent. I get what the story says about him seeing red, and no consequences post zombieday, but I'm sure the ep was really all that successful in explaining him.

So what does it mean that he burned the bat and said to the spirit of Lucille, "And I am gonna do your fighting for you."?
And what does it mean that he went back to Alexandria and stared down Maggie?

Quick aside- Who would have thought Laura would be the one who gave Lucille to Negan?
Dont know if everyone caught that because she didnt have much screen time and didnt yet have the tattoo on her neck, but the doctors daughter is a future lieutenant for the saviors.

Here is some backstory and then my take.

In the comic, Negan breaks lucille on Beta.
He had done the beheading of alpha and ended the whisperer war on his own.
After that, he buried Lucille at a little house outside of town, the community let him be, and he faded to relative obscurity.
coming to terms with the loss of Lucille (wife and bat) was the end of his arc.


Now- although I think there has been a ton of filler lately, I do think they are trying to focus on a few key things moving forward. I think establishing Negans place was one of those things they wanted to get done heading in to the final sprint.

Here is my perception of what they were saying-

Carol makes a unilateral decision to exile Negan. Her motivation is a sense of responsibility- she used him to kill Alpha nd appreciates that. She also holds a grudge, and naturally will side with Maggie, so this is Carols attempt to diffuse the situation and avoid a showdown.

It has been well established that Negan does not like silence, and he thrives around people.
Banishment and zero purpose is the worst case for him.

So here he is- alone in a cabin in exile. No chores for the community, nobody to talk to, no sense of purpose.
He makes his own purpose, find Lucille.
He does.

That moment is a crossroad. He could very well take Lucille out in to the world and start again.
He is smart and persuasive, and if he wanted to he absolutely would make his way to the top again.

Long story short, after soul searching, he discovers he has a pattern- overcompensates for guilt in the name of Lucille.

He beats the shit out of a dude for talking over his wifes song, causing her untold grief.
Bones his wifes friend while she is diagnosed with cancer- and instead of picking up the gun and blowing his head off, she forgives him without a word.
Goes on a massive trek to get her meds and fix her despite knowing it was a losing battle, driven by guilt of how shitty he was to her.
He showed a pattern of doing the wrong thing but avoiding most consequences due to the ability to talk his way out (cult of personality).
He runs in to the medical team aiming to rob them, and he walks away with her meds and ultimately gives them up to the gang and causes them pain.

The basic gist was no matter how poorly he goes about things, no matter who gets trampled, more often than not he gets what he wants with minimal consequence, and he sleeps at night saying he is fighting for lucille.

As he saw what he was, he realized that fact. Lucille was an excuse and a defense.
Lucille breaking showed him that old excuse doesnt work any more. He unearthed it, used it once, and it came apart immediately.

He puts it away.
Instead of running from what he did, instead of finding a new place to go, He goes back to the community.
Ultimately he has decided to face the consequences of his actions without his crutch (lucille).
No hiding from it in the cabin, no running away.

The look between him and Maggie, to me, is her showing she still has a fresh wound, and him smiling back says "I am not running. I am not hiding. I hold no symbol and make no excuses. Hold me responsible. Kill me or forgive me. Lets end this. You decide, did I earn redemption or am I done for? Either way, you decide how we finish this."

From here on out, Negan wants to be 100% part of the community or dead.




... as for him becoming a savior- I am glad they didnt half ass a quick montage. I would totally be on board for a "better call saul" style prequel on the rise of Negan, even if it was a single season.
I would be far more interested in that than the upcoming Carol/Daryl show.
 

Sculpt

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I kind of figure the 'ending Negan and Maggie stare' is he's gonna stay in Alexandria and face the music.

Still, I don't get why his look at Maggie is a smiling defiant stare. First I thought it was a smirk or even a threat, but his smiles always kind of look like a smirk. Probably can't read too much into it.

Negan's statement to the spirit of (his wife) Lucille, "And I am gonna do your fighting for you."... I was looking at the context (that scene) again, and I still don't know what it means. The only fighting Lucille was doing was trying to stay alive, enjoy Negan and keep him with her. How is going to do that for her now? I guess I just have to call this poor writing (or poor editing). It just doesn't make sense.

 
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airtime143

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I kind of figure the ending Negan and Maggie stare is he's gonna stay in Alexandria and face the music.

Still, I don't get why his look at Maggie is a smiling defiant stare. First I thought it was a smirk or even a threat, but his smiles always kind of look like a smirk. Probably can't read too much into it.

Negan's statement to the spirit of (his wife) Lucille, "And I am gonna do your fighting for you."... I was looking at the context (that scene) again, and I still don't know what it means. The only fighting Lucille was doing was trying to stay alive, enjoy Negan and keep him with her. How is going to do that for her now? I guess I just have to call this poor writing (or poor editing). It just doesn't make sense.


I would sum up his smile as satisfied and eager.
He was "protected" by bars for 8 years, distance another year or so.
Whatever the outcome, the last bit of unfinished business will be finished one way or the didn't. No Michonne to stop her either.

There also might be smugness there.
Daryl and Carol came around on him to a degree... enough so that despite multiple opportunities being there to waste him, they didnt. They likely won't protect him should Maggie go hunting, but the likely wouldn't help her either. And Carol herself put him in the cabin to prevent his death.

He knows closure is coming and he likes his odds.
 

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It was cool to see a little backstory on Negan and even better to catch those glimpses of Negan Classic.

Still, the flashback within a flashback, within a flashback, within yet another flashback is the narrative version of nails on a chalkboard to me.

Please oh please have some better writers on hand for the final season.
 

airtime143

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It was cool to see a little backstory on Negan and even better to catch those glimpses of Negan Classic.

Still, the flashback within a flashback, within a flashback, within yet another flashback is the narrative version of nails on a chalkboard to me.

Please oh please have some better writers on hand for the final season.

That was goofy as hell.
They almost needed a timeline graphic at the bottom of the screen.
 

airtime143

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Speaking of which...I really hope the voice over lead in is exclusive to these six episodes because I hate it so much.
"Previously on the walking dead...here is Carol to read badly what happened in her own words."
 

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I feel like the Maggie/Negan thing is telegraphed....

Maggie will eventually go to kill Negan or get an opportunity, and she won't do it.

I would not be surprised if Negan gets some opportunity to save little Hershel or something trite like that, to tip the proverbial scales against Maggie killing him.

In the end she won't kill him, but she also won't forgive him... and she'll say something like "You can live every day the rest of your life carrying the burden of what you did."

Or he'll say something similar.

Dark Horse: Maggie tries to kill Negan in his bed in the middle of the night and ends up fucking him ala that scene in Troy where Brad Pitt fucks the priestess.
 

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