Trade Deadline/Future Line discussion

MassHavoc

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Vegas had no true super-stars...at least that was the perception at the time. Even Fleury was a question mark before he came in and had one of the best seasons of his career. Vegas got a lot of middling players who came in, bought into the system and executed the system (which paid dividends). Contrast that to the 'hawks since which have/had no real game-plan, no real buy-in, aging superstars (with the exception of Debrincat) with few mid-tier players and a lot of trash-heap players (by their own GM's design). Futher, unlike Vegas the 'hawks have been 19 players playing individually as opposed to being a team like they were in the cup-winning years.

As has been mentioned elsewhere: what has happened to Arizona, Florida, and a lot of other teams in nontraditional markets--it was in the league's best interest to see Vegas (and by proxy, Seattle) do well--that way the team builds a local fanbase and is not struggling in the basement early on, and thus hemorrhaging cash that the rest of the league has to try to account for.

Based on the rules of expansion, Vegas should have been a mid-tier team in terms of talent on paper. Good enough to win and attract a fan-base but on-paper, not dominant. The result was skewed by their execution and buy-in that made them that good. IMHO when it comes to Seattle, they're playing by the same expansion rules and it will be a tall order for them to replicate Vegas' success. The team should come in mid-tier on paper, but how they do will be up to the coaching, game plan, and buy-in from the players. I don't think Seattle will replicate the success, but I could be wrong.

However, it would have done the league no good if both Seattle and Vegas got nothing but trash-heap players and stayed in the cellar like all the other expansion clubs in history. If the league buys into having a Seattle-based teram and a Vegas-based team (like a Phoenix-based team), the sooner they can be solvent on their own without the league's help, the better.

At least that's my $0.02.


Seattle has virtually the same lottery rules as Vegas. If Seattle is set up like Vegas to be a mid-tier player, why give them the #1 pick automatically when real scrap-heap teams like Detroit, Buffalo, etc. could use it more.
Vegas should have got it automatically too
 

LordKOTL

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Vegas should have got it automatically too
Ehh, maybe. if they did I wouldn't have sweated it, but I think the fact that the expansion drafts were designed to give each team the chance to be middle-of-the-pack unless they have a huge chemistry buy-in or their GM is a beancounter in disguise, picking 3 or 4 shouldn't (and didn't) harm them much--if at all.

Now if the expansion drafts were like in the past and the drafts were scraping the cast-off barely NHL player barrel, then yeah, give them #1oa.
 

hawkinmontreal

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Ehh, maybe. if they did I wouldn't have sweated it, but I think the fact that the expansion drafts were designed to give each team the chance to be middle-of-the-pack unless they have a huge chemistry buy-in or their GM is a beancounter in disguise, picking 3 or 4 shouldn't (and didn't) harm them much--if at all.

Now if the expansion drafts were like in the past and the drafts were scraping the cast-off barely NHL player barrel, then yeah, give them #1oa.
Lord I am old school and believe new teams that enter the league should follow what previous teams had done in the past. You mentioned Vegas had chosen a ton of mid level players, yes, they did, but they weren’t the bottom of the Barrel. take a look at Ottawa’s amazing lineup the first year that franchise entered the league.
 

LordKOTL

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Lord I am old school and believe new teams that enter the league should follow what previous teams had done in the past. You mentioned Vegas had chosen a ton of mid level players, yes, they did, but they weren’t the bottom of the Barrel. take a look at Ottawa’s amazing lineup the first year that franchise entered the league.
Right, but I don't think that having a team come in at the bottom of the league and "earn their stripes" is conducive to the league as a business. The league is going to want to see Vegas as successful and they are going to want to grow the fanbase there. Why? More money. Once the honeymoon period is over how many Las Vegans are going to want to spend their cash on tickets and line the league's pockets? More will do so if the team is more of a winner than a loser.

If Vegas turns into a reliably-profitable franchise and sticks there after the honeymoon phase is over, the better for the league. In fact, they have. They're running a profit and are as profitable as teams like Pittsburg.

Ottawa, being Canadian, has the fact that it is Canadian and is in a traditional hockey market going for it. Vegas doesn't. Florida might be a better analogy. Florida, on the other hand, isn't bringing in the cash. Ottawa is right around the middle of the pack, while Florida is down near the bottom.

I understand the desire to have a team "earn their stripes" from a fan's point of view. I don't disagree with it necessarily. But, I also understand the business side of it and needing new teams to have everything set up so they can be profitable on their own ASAP after the honeymoon phase ends. I think what the league did is probably the best compromise: try to get the team to come in mid-pack and let them sink or swim based on team dynamics, coaching, and game plan. After all, expansion could have seen them able to take real superstars in expansion--and the apoplexy would have been prevalent.

The last thing the league should want is to turn Vegas into another AZ where the league has to prop them up. Given the uncertainty of the market when the plans were announced, having a team as bad as Ottawa (1st year? Now? is there a difference?) would have likely done that.
 

Raskolnikov

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Right, but I don't think that having a team come in at the bottom of the league and "earn their stripes" is conducive to the league as a business. The league is going to want to see Vegas as successful and they are going to want to grow the fanbase there. Why? More money. Once the honeymoon period is over how many Las Vegans are going to want to spend their cash on tickets and line the league's pockets? More will do so if the team is more of a winner than a loser.

If Vegas turns into a reliably-profitable franchise and sticks there after the honeymoon phase is over, the better for the league. In fact, they have. They're running a profit and are as profitable as teams like Pittsburg.

Ottawa, being Canadian, has the fact that it is Canadian and is in a traditional hockey market going for it. Vegas doesn't. Florida might be a better analogy. Florida, on the other hand, isn't bringing in the cash. Ottawa is right around the middle of the pack, while Florida is down near the bottom.

I understand the desire to have a team "earn their stripes" from a fan's point of view. I don't disagree with it necessarily. But, I also understand the business side of it and needing new teams to have everything set up so they can be profitable on their own ASAP after the honeymoon phase ends. I think what the league did is probably the best compromise: try to get the team to come in mid-pack and let them sink or swim based on team dynamics, coaching, and game plan. After all, expansion could have seen them able to take real superstars in expansion--and the apoplexy would have been prevalent.

The last thing the league should want is to turn Vegas into another AZ where the league has to prop them up. Given the uncertainty of the market when the plans were announced, having a team as bad as Ottawa (1st year? Now? is there a difference?) would have likely done that.
Vegas also did a good job of selecting for the future while picking the right veterans to lead them immediately. (Neal, Fleury).

It's doubtful Seattle can come close to replicating what Vegas did even if they follow the same model.

I wouldn't worry about it but believe they should have to enter the lottery at the top of the draft like everyone else.
 

MassHavoc

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Why, because they are expansion teams. Did Ottawa, Tampa, Florida and a host of other teams that entered the league get the number 1, Nashville. No they did not.
That's what I'm saying. They all should have. I get it and such, not a hill to die on, but I think the expansion teams should have the #1 pick and the best chance to have a face of the league in their franchise.
 

Raskolnikov

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That's what I'm saying. They all should have. I get it and such, not a hill to die on, but I think the expansion teams should have the #1 pick and the best chance to have a face of the league in their franchise.
I disagree. I think its a sham when there is a generational player and all the teams that have fought and paid their dues for 30 years don't get a chance to win the lottery and get an all timer.

I would be more comfortable with the expansion team picking 4th or 5th and not even getting a chance than just getting the #1 to be honest.
 

LordKOTL

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I disagree. I think its a sham when there is a generational player and all the teams that have fought and paid their dues for 30 years don't get a chance to win the lottery and get an all timer.

I would be more comfortable with the expansion team picking 4th or 5th and not even getting a chance than just getting the #1 to be honest.
Both Vegas and Seattle were ranked with #3 odds in the lottery of their inaugural draft. Vegas dropped to 6. Seattle rose to 2. Both has 10.3% odds of winning the 1st overall from their position.

To compare and contrast with the 'hawks--Vegas picked at 6oa. the 'hawks have 2 6oa picks in their history. One was for Adam Bennet. The other was for Doug Wilson. (no 2oa picked in the 'hawks history--unless my eyes are deceiving me). Even with a 3oa pick the 'hawks run the gamut: Caffery, Savard, Olczyk, Barker, Toews, and Dach. One is a HHoF'er. One is likley a HHoF'er. One is a USHHoF'er. Two are ultimately forgettable. We don't know what Dach is yet.

Getting a *real* HoF talent can happen anywhere in the draft. Keith was a 2nd rounder. Datsyuk was picked up in the 6th round. Also, consider how many 1oa picks the oil had in the 2010's and how well they worked out for them.
 

Bust

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Watch the vegas-avs series

The skill, speed, size, depth and goaltending at every position is light years better than the hawks (both teams along with Tampa prob have the most talent in the nhl)

The Hawks are a long way away from either of those rosters.

call us back when either of these teams win 3 cups during the hard salary cap era...

NEXT!!!!
 

greg23

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call us back when either of these teams win 3 cups during the hard salary cap era...

NEXT!!!!
Not sure what that has to do with the current talent level of the 3 teams.....just pointing out how far off the hawks are to a current elite team like they were from 2009-2016

My guess is we'll be picked 7th/8th next pre season in the Central (down there with az)
 

Raskolnikov

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Not sure what that has to do with the current talent level of the 3 teams.....just pointing out how far off the hawks are to a current elite team like they were from 2009-2016

My guess is we'll be picked 7th/8th next pre season in the Central (down there with az)
As we should be.

A great defender and another goalie might dramatically reshape this roster, but as of now the Hawks are in a bit of trouble.
 

Raskolnikov

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Cat-BorgBot-Kane
Suter-Dach-Barrett/Reichel
Hagel-Toews-Kubalik
Connolly-Kampf-Kurashev/Shalnov
 

Granada

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Not sure what that has to do with the current talent level of the 3 teams.....just pointing out how far off the hawks are to a current elite team like they were from 2009-2016

My guess is we'll be picked 7th/8th next pre season in the Central (down there with az)

I was thinking the same thing, not only in relation to the Hawks, but in seeing teams like Carolina and Edmonton go down. Physicality is the name of the game in terms of forechecking, winning puck battles, consistently blocking shots and being quick in transition. You can't just be a speedy team that scores a lot in the regular season. The Hawks are nowhere close to being a good team right now. They can't even dump and chase, let alone forecheck consistently.
 

HSBOB

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I was thinking the same thing, not only in relation to the Hawks, but in seeing teams like Carolina and Edmonton go down. Physicality is the name of the game in terms of forechecking, winning puck battles, consistently blocking shots and being quick in transition. You can't just be a speedy team that scores a lot in the regular season. The Hawks are nowhere close to being a good team right now. They can't even dump and chase, let alone forecheck consistently.
Lets look at a team like the Isle....
Do they dress a top 10 scorer? Top 20? No but the Hawks do........what in the hell does that tell us?
IMO,it tells us the isle are built for this and coached for it too.
The Caps ain't got past the first round since they booted Trotz and how's Harry Potter done here?

It looked like the Avs were just too fast for Vegas but Vegas said not so fast and slowed the two high fliers down......Saad's been better than MacKinnon and Landeskog this series. Saad made a beautiful play to save a goal with 2mns left in the 1st and then skated down and beat a tender who's been hard to beat.
Game one was an outlier,the Avs had a week off,Lehner was bad in game one and game two hung on an iffy OT penalty call.

I'd love to see the Bolts and Isle go at it.....it won't be for the faint of heart........or half our roster in other words.
 
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LordKOTL

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Lets look at a team like the Isle....
Do they dress a top 10 scorer? Top 20? No but the Hawks do........what in the hell does that tell us?
IMO,it tells us the isle are built for this and coached for it too.
The Caps ain't got past the first round since they booted Trotz and how's Harry Potter done here?

It looked like the Avs were just too fast for Vegas but Vegas said not so fast and slowed the two high fliers down......Saad's been better than MacKinnon and Landeskog this series. Saad made a beautiful play to save a goal with 2mns left in the 1st and then skated down and beat a tender who's been hard to beat.
Game one was an outlier,the Avs had a week off,Lehner was bad in game one and game two hung on an iffy TO penalty call.

I'd love to see the Bolts and Isle go at it.....it won't be for the faint of heart........or half our roster in other words.
You made my morning man! Thanks!
 

Granada

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Lets look at a team like the Isle....
Do they dress a top 10 scorer? Top 20? No but the Hawks do........what in the hell does that tell us?
IMO,it tells us the isle are built for this and coached for it too.
The Caps ain't got past the first round since they booted Trotz and how's Harry Potter done here?

It looked like the Avs were just too fast for Vegas but Vegas said not so fast and slowed the two high fliers down......Saad's been better than MacKinnon and Landeskog this series. Saad made a beautiful play to save a goal with 2mns left in the 1st and then skated down and beat a tender who's been hard to beat.
Game one was an outlier,the Avs had a week off,Lehner was bad in game one and game two hung on an iffy OT penalty call.

I'd love to see the Bolts and Isle go at it.....it won't be for the faint of heart........or half our roster in other words.
I agree with everything here Bob, but I will say, I do wonder if at least one game breaker is needed on a Cup team. I feel like every team needs at least one player that can just break it wide open. McKinnon is the Avs', but he's being completely shut down by Vegas. Is Barzal the guy for the Isle? I hope so, but I just don't know. He certainly came through last game, but I almost feel like the Isle, Panthers, and Canes are all in the same boat -- they don't have that one game-changer, clutch-goal scorer that's always needed to win the Cup. Panthers have Barkov, but is he a bonafide game changer? Canes have, Aho maybe? If those players are the best of the best for their respective clubs, I can't say I'm totally shocked they got bounced in the playoffs, because to me, they're not really bonafide game changers -- they're very good players, but not game changers. You can probably add Montreal to that list too. It's definitely debatable.

Vegas seems to be the exception to the rule here. They really don't have a bonafide game changer on their squad either, at least in my view, but they're still alive for now. Then again, they did almost get beat by Minny.
 

HSBOB

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I agree with everything here Bob, but I will say, I do wonder if at least one game breaker is needed on a Cup team. I feel like every team needs at least one player that can just break it wide open. McKinnon is the Avs', but he's being completely shut down by Vegas. Is Barzal the guy for the Isle? I hope so, but I just don't know. He certainly came through last game, but I almost feel like the Isle, Panthers, and Canes are all in the same boat -- they don't have that one game-changer, clutch-goal scorer that's always needed to win the Cup. Panthers have Barkov, but is he a bonafide game changer? Canes have, Aho maybe? If those players are the best of the best for their respective clubs, I can't say I'm totally shocked they got bounced in the playoffs, because to me, they're not really bonafide game changers -- they're very good players, but not game changers. You can probably add Montreal to that list too. It's definitely debatable.

Vegas seems to be the exception to the rule here. They really don't have a bonafide game changer on their squad either, at least in my view, but they're still alive for now. Then again, they did almost get beat by Minny.
Great cup winning forwards like Sid and Gino and Kane and Toews who produce in the postseason are certainly necessary ingredients but not he only necessary ingredients as the Oil and Leafs fans know.

Barkov scores,wins FO's and he's a Selke finalist and Hooby dooby doo puts up big numbers too,a healthy Ekblad next year should keep the Cats in a cup hunt for a while.

MAF has been a STUD too......no better way to win a PO game than givin' up two or less IMO.
The great Corey Crawford allowed 25 goals in 12 SCF games......legendary stuff!
 

LordKOTL

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I agree with everything here Bob, but I will say, I do wonder if at least one game breaker is needed on a Cup team. I feel like every team needs at least one player that can just break it wide open. McKinnon is the Avs', but he's being completely shut down by Vegas. Is Barzal the guy for the Isle? I hope so, but I just don't know. He certainly came through last game, but I almost feel like the Isle, Panthers, and Canes are all in the same boat -- they don't have that one game-changer, clutch-goal scorer that's always needed to win the Cup. Panthers have Barkov, but is he a bonafide game changer? Canes have, Aho maybe? If those players are the best of the best for their respective clubs, I can't say I'm totally shocked they got bounced in the playoffs, because to me, they're not really bonafide game changers -- they're very good players, but not game changers. You can probably add Montreal to that list too. It's definitely debatable.

Vegas seems to be the exception to the rule here. They really don't have a bonafide game changer on their squad either, at least in my view, but they're still alive for now. Then again, they did almost get beat by Minny.
Agreed, but I think Price would be considered a game changer for Montreal--kinda like what Bob was saying about MAF. He's 1st in SV% in this year's playoffs, 2nd in most SA, and his GAA is 3rd (even though that's more of a team stat). Like other goalies you might not be able to rely on him to score when needed, but he's keeping the opposition's scoring down and making a big save when needed.
 

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