What Bears 4-3 can look like....suggestions?

[dennehy]

This is a silly argument. I like him at Edge as well with his hand in the dirt. No one would have brought it up before because it would not have come up before. He was drafted in a 3-4 where it is obvious he is an OLB.

It is also obvious he is an Edge in a 4-3 but we have Mack and Quinn so the only reason it is coming up is to see if there is a way to get all 3 on the field at the same time.

I know of no scout that is psychic and thus would have comtemplated this scenario back when he was drafted. So the question is does he possess skills to play SLB 20-25% of the time on largely run downs. I think the answer is yes.

What's silly is you thinking he can or should do something that he's never done and that no one even mentioned for him as a possibility (scouts do this all the time for players who they think have positional flexibility). Scouts aren't scouting him specifically to the Bears situation. If they thought he could play off ball LB they would have said so in their scouting report. But they all scouted him only as an EDGE player who was better suited to hand in the dirt.

 

[remydat]

He's not a linebacker. Why would you want him playing SLB on running downs? He's not a space player, and he'd be an absolute liability in coverage.

It's far more likely he plays 3 technique in passing situations then SLB. As it stands, I would expect them to use either him or even Mack there. He's a pass rusher.

He plays coverage 5% of the time now. If they are in base 25% of the time then the reality is you are talking about him playing coverage 10% of the time as teams are running like 60-70% of the time when they are in 2 WR or less personnel.

 

[ZenBear34]

You really think they're keeping Goldman who sucked as a NT and his $8M salary to pretend to be a 3T ? LOL

Devonte Wyatt in the 3rd ?

I like Perrion Winfrey. Good fit as a 3 technique, should be there in the 2nd. Local kid too.

 

[remydat]

You really think they're keeping Goldman who sucked as a NT and his $8M salary to pretend to be a 3T ? LOL

Devonte Wyatt in the 3rd ?

No I would expect him to be cut but just listed the guys on the team now.

 

[ZenBear34]

He plays coverage 5% of the time now. If they are in base 25% of the time then the reality is you are talking about him playing coverage 10% of the tine as teams are running like 60-70% of the time when they are in 2 WR or less personnel.

Okay. He's not remotely a linebacker in a one gap scheme. He would still have to tackle in space and do a bunch of other things he's not suited for. Why would you want him on the field in run situations? He's a pass rusher. He's a defense end. He's not Roosevelt Colvin. There's no reason they would try to convert him to a position he's never played and nullify his best qualities.

Like I said, you want him on the field rush the passer, so put Mack, Quinn, and him on the line in passing situations.

 

[remydat]

What's silly is you thinking he can or should do something that he's never done and that no one even mentioned for him as a possibility (scouts do this all the time for players who they think have positional flexibility). Scouts aren't scouting him specifically to the Bears situation. If they thought he could play off ball LB they would have said so in their scouting report. But they all scouted him only as an EDGE player who was better suited to hand in the dirt.

Scouts are not going to discuss him playing something 20-25% of the time. They discuss positional flexibility when guys can play 2 positions the majority of the time. No one is asking Gipson to play SLB the majority of the time.

 

[remydat]

Okay. He's not remotely a linebacker in a one gap scheme. He would still have to tackle in space and do a bunch of other things he's not suited for. Why would you want him on the field in run situations? He's a pass rusher. He's a defense end. He's not Roosevelt Colvin. There's no reason they would try to convert him to a position he's never played and nullify his best qualities.

Like I said, you want him on the field rush the passer, so put Mack, Quinn, and him on the line in passing situations.

Again his scouting report said he was good tracking and tackling in space as well as moving laterally. It is clearly a projection on my part.

He is not bad in run D and actually played more run D snaps than pass D ie 237 vs 229. Making him purely a pass rush spcialist is selling him short especially if he will potentially have to replace one of Quinn or Mack at some point.

I already said he would play DE in passing situations and you can kick Mack inside. It was in my very first post in this thread as I broke it up by base and nickel D.

 

[dennehy]

Scouts are not going to discuss him playing something 20-25% of the time. They discuss positional flexibility when guys can play 2 positions the majority of the time. No one is asking Gipson to play SLB the majority of the time.

LOL the scouts' job is to scout the player. So yes, they are. If they thought he had any potential to play off the ball, they would have said that. They did not.

Draftnetwork on Gipson's standup ability, if we are doing college scouting reports:

Stand Up Ability - Wouldn't endorse him playing pass coverage reps, didn't see a lot of that on film and he's not a comfortable tackler in space. His upside to stand up reps would be gaining additional leverage as an outside-in run defender who gets better leverage for contain as end man on the LOS.

Also just FYI from yesterday, Colvin never played in a Tampa 2. He played in Jauron's cover 2, which was a totally different scheme up front (two huge tackles who ate blocks and came out on passing downs). That was a much different game with less complicated passing schemes. Hillenmeyer was the SAM during most of Lovie's Tampa 2 days and his game is totally different from Gipson, obviously.

 

[remydat]

LOL the scouts' job is to scout the player. So yes, they are. If they thought he had any potential to play off the ball, they would have said that. They did not.

Draftnetwork on Gipson's standup ability, if we are doing college scouting reports:

Stand Up Ability - Wouldn't endorse him playing pass coverage reps, didn't see a lot of that on film and he's not a comfortable tackler in space. His upside to stand up reps would be gaining additional leverage as an outside-in run defender who gets better leverage for contain as end man on the LOS.

Also just FYI from yesterday, Colvin never played in a Tampa 2. He played in Jauron's cover 2, which was a totally different scheme up front (two huge tackles who ate blocks and came out on passing downs). That was a much different game with less complicated passing schemes. Hillenmeyer was the SAM during most of Lovie's Tampa 2 days and his game is totally different from Gipson, obviously.

He plays pass coverage reps already. And I already posted the other scouting report that says he can play in space. So as with us, that is simply a difference of opinion on the scout reports.

You are correct on Colvin playing for Jauron not Lovie. Not sure I would agree it was less complicated. Tampa 2 typically has the SLB playing mostly zone.

The SLB is basically a backup in today's NFL. So dont think we will expend alot of resources on it so would prefer if we can find a guy that can play it part time and rush the passer. As well as blitz from the SLB spot from time to time.

 

[dennehy]

He plays pass coverage reps already. And I already posted the other scouting report that says he can play in space. So as with us, that is simply a difference of opinion on the scout reports.

You are correct on Colvin playing for Jauron not Lovie. Not sure I would agree it was less complicated. Tampa 2 typically has the SLB playing mostly zone.

The SLB is basically a backup in today's NFL. So dont think we will expend alot of resources on it so would prefer if we can find a guy that can play it part time and rush the passer.

Every OLB in a 3-4 has to play coverage occasionally because teams don't blitz on every play. That doesn't mean he does more than simply drop into a little zone in the flat. The scouting report you linked has him doing that as a DE, not an off ball LB. So he's good at it for an EDGE. And really no one else thought that except Lance Zierlein (who made his bones as a radio personality, not a scout) and he's not been used that way at all.

I didn't say Jauron's d was less complicated, I said passing schemes were less complicated 20 years ago and certainly less emphasis was put on pass coverage for LB compared with today.

They will bring in a new player to play SAM or perhaps Trevethan. Tampa 2 teams typically like to have off ball LBs playing off ball LB, not players who are ill-suited to the position and have never done it before.

 

[Bort]

He was a DE in college and played with his hand in the dirt a lot with the Bears, who were also in Nickel like 65% of the time. He never lined up off the ball and played like a 4-3 LB, reading through OL to backfield. Switching levels of defense is very tough. Sometimes you have a guy like Isaiah Simmons who is sort of a hybrid SS/LB but its rare. I can't think of anyone who made the switch from EDGE to off ball LB mid career.

I doubt you followed how Colvin was deployed at Purdue.

If you don't want to debate, you are free to stop at any time.

I have Remy on ignore, so I’m not sure exactly what you’re arguing about, but I remember Colvin playing mostly DE with his hand in the dirt at Purdue, and then playing mostly standing up as a SLB as a Bear (although the Bears would move him to DE in obvious passing situations).

 

[dennehy]

I have Remy on ignore, so I’m not sure exactly what you’re arguing about, but I remember Colvin playing mostly DE with his hand in the dirt at Purdue, and then playing mostly standing up as a SLB as a Bear (although the Bears would move him to DE in obvious passing situations).

He's trying to say the Bears should put Trevis Gipson at SAM in Eberflus's defense. His example is Colvin. I pointed out that Colvin never played in a Tampa 2 and that the game has changed a great deal since Colvin.

Colvin was a better EDGE player than off ball player imo, and don't think he'd be a viable off ball LB in today's game.

 

[remydat]

Every OLB in a 3-4 has to play coverage occasionally because teams don't blitz on every play. That doesn't mean he does more than simply drop into a little zone in the flat. The scouting report you linked has him doing that as a DE, not an off ball LB. So he's good at it for an EDGE. And really no one else thought that except Lance Zierlein (who made his bones as a radio personality, not a scout) and he's not been used that way at all.

I didn't say Jauron's d was less complicated, I said passing schemes were less complicated 20 years ago and certainly less emphasis was put on pass coverage for LB compared with today.

They will bring in a new player to play SAM or perhaps Trevethan. Tampa 2 teams typically like to have off ball LBs playing off ball LB, not players who are ill-suited to the position and have never done it before.

Yes and given a SLB only plays about 20-25% of the time on mainly run downs the coverage snaps are not all that significantly different than it is for a 3-4 OLB.

A LB in Tampa 2 plays mostly zone. The passing concepts also will not be that complicated in 2 WR or 2 TE sets. He would not be in on the more complicated passing sets as that would usually be 3 or more WRs where you bring in nickel.

 

[Bort]

He's trying to say the Bears should put Trevis Gipson at SAM in Eberflus's defense. His example is Colvin. I pointed out that Colvin never played in a Tampa 2 and that the game has changed a great deal since Colvin.

Colvin was a better EDGE player than off ball player imo, and don't think he'd be a viable off ball LB in today's game.

I agree that Colvin was a better EDGE player, and he was a little slow as a SAM.

I think Gipson probably has the athleticism to play SAM (more so than Colvin did), but it’s pretty risky to go into a season expecting a guy to effectively play a position he’s never played before. Ideally, you’d have a real SAM, and use Gipson as the 3rd DE in the rotation.

 

[dennehy]

Yes and given a SLB only plays about 20-25% of the time on mainly run downs the coverage snaps are not all that significantly different than it is for a 3-4 OLB.

A LB in Tampa 2 plays mostly zone. The passing concepts also.will mot be that complicated in 2 WR or 2 TE sets. He would not be in on the more complicated passing sets as that would usually be 3 or mpre WRs where you bring in nickel.

The coverage snaps come more often and they are different, and the running keys are far different.

If it's so unimportant why not sign a cheap guy who actually plays off the ball, can play those unimportant snaps and special teams, and let Gipson play where he actually is suited to play?

It's not going to happen.

 

[dennehy]

I agree that Colvin was a better EDGE player, and he was a little slow as a SAM.

I think Gipson probably has the athleticism to play SAM (more so than Colvin did), but it’s pretty risky to go into a season expecting a guy to effectively play a position he’s never played before. Ideally, you’d have a real SAM, and use Gipson as the 3rd DE in the rotation.

Dude's never even read a running play off the ball in his life. I don't think there's anyway they'd just throw him out there. o me even a vet minimum guy who is actually a LB and can play special teams is far better.

Like you said let him play DE, where he shows a lot of promise, and hopefully be good enough to take over for Mack in 23 or later.

 

[DeerBrinker34]

Rosey Colvin was a DL in college and then played SLB on early downs and then DE on passing downs for the Bears in Lovie's Tampa 2. Hence why I referenced him. Pretty sure Bruce Irven used to do it in Seattle as well ie play SLB on early downs then DE on passing downs as a guy like Michael Bennet used to kick inside from DE to 3T.

Colvin played for Jauron. He never played for Lovie in Chicago.

 

[remydat]

The coverage snaps come more often and they are different, and the running keys are far different.

If it's so unimportant why not sign a cheap guy who actually plays off the ball, can play those unimportant snaps and special teams, and let Gipson play where he actually is suited to play?

It's not going to happen.

Let's do some quick math. Team runs 70 plays. D is in base 25% of the time or 17 snaps. Teams run say 65% of the time in these 2 WR or 2 TE sets so you are talking about 6 coverage snaps. Currently Gipson gets like 2 or 3. In short it is not really that significant because again the SAM is not on the field much.

I have no problem if they end up getting someone else for SAM. I was using guys currently on the roster or our own FAs rather than projecting signings. So I had Smith at WLB and DT at MLB. Didnt like any of the other guys ar SLB as dont think they are better than Gipson and dont think the 6 coverage snaps sitting in a zone is worth not playing the better player.

 

[remydat]

Colvin played for Jauron. He never played for Lovie in Chicago.

Yes Dennehy already corrected me.

 

[BearsFan51]

When did Mack or Quinn ever line up in the linebacker spot? Bears played four man fronts from Fangio to Pogano and Desai. Get over this 3-4 4-3 crap. No one is playing the old Bum Phillips 3-4 defense.

Get over it.