What if I told You the Bears O-line is the 2nd best in the NFL?

[remydat]

@run and shoot

The first quote is not a strawman as I did not claim it was your opinion. I asked a question. A simple response would be to say you dont believe a WCO is better for Fields.

It also isnt begging the question because begging the question is when you support an argument by restating the argument. It is circular reasoning. See below examples. What I asked you was a loaded question not begging the question.

The 2nd post you quoted was not addressed to you and I never claimed you said that we should change to a WCO so can't be a strawman. Again a strawman would require I state it was your opinion. I did not say it was. I was pointing out switching to a WCO would not solve the problem tonpoint out his holding the ball too long is not a function of the O we run for reasons explained below in my subsequent post.

Begging the Question

 

[remydat]

Our offense is not predicated on the quick passing game i.e. the WCO. So yes he will hold the ball waiting for the route to develop. Key point here is we do not run a offense based on the quick passing game i.e. the WCO

To further illustrate the point. Here was your response to me . Regardless of the offense you run there is a timing to when the ball has to come out and it is clear that sometimes Fields does not throw the ball when he should within the structure of the Bears offense. So the irony is your bringing up the WCO is a red herring as holding the ball too long can be an issue regardless of whether it is a quick pass or a deep pass.

The problem is he holds the ball too long because whether it is a quick pass or deeper pass sometimes he is at the end of his drop and doesnt throw the ball despite the WR being open. Or he doesnt throw with aniticpation and wait for the WR to be open which means the DB has more time to recover.

So your response missed the point. You can hold the ball too long in a WCO or in an O predicated on longer passing. The question is whether you are getting the ball out on time within the structure of the given play and offense. Fields still doesnt do that consistently. He holds the ball too long sometimes on quick passes and he holds the ball too long on deeper passes sometimes. That is the point.

 

[run and shoot]

@run and shoot

The first quote is not a strawman as I did not claim it was your opinion. I asked a question. A simple response would be to say you dont believe a WCO is better for Fields. Whether conscientiously or unconsciously u have a tendency toward distorting an opposing position/ observation into an extreme version of itself and then arguing against that extreme version. That's a strawman. Then below u admit to intentionally pushing a bad faith question, LOL........I can't make this up it's all here.

It also isnt begging the question because begging the question is when you support an argument by restating the argument. It is circular reasoning. See below examples. What I asked you was a loaded question not begging the question.
You tend to mesh several fallacies all together. Begging the question is also called arguing in a circle.
The 2nd post you quoted was not addressed to you and I never claimed you said that we should change to a WCO so can't be a strawman.

Key point here is we do not run a offense based on the quick passing game i.e. the WCO
Let the record show.........Any deviation from the core point above i.e.?" What is your source for a WCO being better for Fields?"........is a strawman tactic. Juxtaposed with the "begging the question" tactic

It wasn't a loaded question . It was a combo strawman, red herring, non sequitur, begging the question distortion and distraction away from you not having a source for your "Fields doesnt like to take them as his preference is to attack downfield." statement in link #80 and link #83 The links lead directly back to what u said.

Again a strawman would require I state it was your opinion. I did not say it was. I was pointing out switching to a WCO would not solve the problem tonpoint out his holding the ball too long is not a function of the O we run for reasons explained below in my subsequent post.
when u "switch" to something not stated initially, that constitutes moving the discussion into realm of distortion, misrepresentation, while the real subject of the argument/ statement was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one. That's known as a strawman I addressed "begging the question" above

Begging the Question

Pull out my exact quotes from link #120 or any link. You produce any exact quote and I'll address it.
Copy and pasting exact quotes prevents personal interpretation or misinterpreting whats said.

 

[run and shoot]

The Bears do not utilize a 3 step and release type offensive scheme that allows a Qb to quickly release the ball.
Hence, The Qb has to wait for the 1st -3rd reads to get open, while an already poor pass pro OL gets stressed and suffers pocket collapsation. JF is then left use his improvisation skill set. (See footage provided post link #74 )

(See footage provided post link #74 )

 

[remydat]

Key point here is we do not run a offense based on the quick passing game i.e. the WCO
Let the record show.........Any deviation from the core point above i.e.?" What is your source for a WCO being better for Fields?"........is a strawman tactic. Juxtaposed with the "begging the question" tactic

It wasn't a loaded question . It was a combo strawman, red herring, non sequitur, begging the question distortion and distraction away from you not having a source for your "Fields doesnt like to take them as his preference is to attack downfield." statement in link #80 and link #83The links lead directly back to what u said.


Pull out my exact quotes from link #120 or any link. You produce any exact quote and I'll address it.
Copy and pasting exact quotes prevents personal interpretation or misinterpreting whats said.

Yeah you dont know what a strawman or begging the question is. Quote where I said you said we wanted to run a WCO? A strawman requires I claim you said something. I did not make any claims that you said we wanted to change to a WCO.

The Bears do not utilize a 3 step and release type offensive scheme that allows a Qb to quickly release the ball.
Hence, The Qb has to wait for the 1st -3rd reads to get open, while an already poor pass pro OL gets stressed and suffers pocket collapsation. JF is then left use his improvisation skill set. (See footage provided post link #74 )

(See footage provided post link #74 )

I quoted you in post 122. Your response here is irrelevant. My point is he holds the ball too long sometimes. That is true whether it is a quick pass or a deep pass. You can hold the ball too long on quick passess or deep passes for reasons I explained in post 122. So your comments on the WCO are irrelevant to what I said.

 

[run and shoot]

Yeah you dont know what a strawman or begging the question is. Quote where I said you said we wanted to run a WCO? A strawman requires I claim you said something. I did not make any claims that you said we wanted to change to a WCO.



I quoted you in post 122. Your response here is irrelevant. My point is he holds the ball too long sometimes. That is true whether it is a quick pass or a deep pass. You can hold the ball too long on quick passess or deep passes for reasons I explained in post 122. So your comments on the WCO are irrelevant to what I said.

And I addressed you in link #123 click to review or refute any specific quote

See that’s another thing, when you don’t want deal with a statement, observation etc , you’ll fall back on the word “irrelevant”.

So your comments on the WCO are irrelevant to what I said.

No because you pushed and misrepresented my statement about using the WCO as an example of what the Bear offense is NOT. >>> "Our offense is not predicated on the quick passing game i.e. the WCO. So yes he will hold the ball waiting for the route to develop.Key point here is we do not run a offense based on the quick passing game i.e. the WCO"

Your comments.....

remydat said:

There are checkdowns built into most plays. Fields doesnt like to take them as his preference is to attack downfield.

Right here you're navigating away from the initiate observation. Lets continue......

Key point here is Fields is not a fit for a WCO because he wants to throw downfield.

What is your source for a WCO being better for Fields?

And here we go, above.....with the distortion and distraction tactics about WCO

Let's continue.....

Correct. He needs to improve on that but we are not going to install a WCO that doesnt accentuate his strengths.

Right now QB runs are serving as the quick passes in this O. Eventually you want less runs and more quick passes that will be safer for Fields but we arent going to suddenly run a WCO.

So yeah, there's relevance in the initial WCO example / observation below. However ur various statements/claims above, twisted and distorted, strawmaned / red herring it into something else totally different vs my original observations here.......

"Our offense is not predicated on the quick passing game i.e. the WCO. So yes he will hold the ball waiting for the route to develop.Key point here is we do not run a offense based on the quick passing game i.e. the WCO"

 

[remydat]

It is irrelevant because again whether one holds the ball too long is not simply a function of whether they have quick passes.

“Obviously he can make dynamic plays, but we want to see also the ordinary plays, the checkdowns, the easy passes, take what the defense gives you, all those types of things that he thinks he needs to improve on and we do, too,” Eberflus said Monday.

You really dont know what you are talking about. He is holdong the ball to long in this offense at times. That is regardless of whether it is a quick pass or not.

 

[run and shoot]

It is irrelevant because again whether one holds the ball too long is not simply a function of whether they have quick passes.

“Obviously he can make dynamic plays, but we want to see also the ordinary plays, the checkdowns, the easy passes, take what the defense gives you, all those types of things that he thinks he needs to improve on and we do, too,” Eberflus said Monday.

You really dont know what you are talking about. He is holdong the ball to long in this offense at times. That is regardless of whether it is a quick pass or not.

“Obviously he can make dynamic plays, but we want to see also the ordinary plays, the checkdowns, the easy passes, take what the defense gives you, all those types of things that he thinks he needs to improve on and we do, too,” Eberflus said Monday.

For the record....I do want JF checking down when wr's aren't getting separation. All this is contingent on JF getting
good pass pro and not having to use his improvisation skill set to avoid pocket collapsation. With that said.......

Do you have the full story which provides the context for this quote i.e. the article or link ? I want to see the context. Thanks

I found it . @6:30 'Flus is saying he wants JF to continue doing the things he did the prior week. Overall he's saying he wants JF to continue developing. I didn't pick up anything the presser indicting JF on "holding the ball to long" as though it's the a major problem in JF's game.

__________________________________________________


I've dealt with JF in terms of him releasing the ball here in link #64

@2:13....collapsing pocket
@3:50.......collapsing pocket b4 ya can even do a 1-1000 count.
@7:00......I woulda hit that wr over middle. Didn't happen **
@9:10......collapsing pocket. Was the slant there. Hard to tell
@11:00 ......more like crossing / post routes . But ok. He needed to hit the quick out **
_______________________________________________


Everything I said in link #126 is totally relevant and I used your exact quotes for confirmation.
Copy & paste whatever in link #126 is irrelevant and or untrue etc. I will address it.

 

[remydat]

Having said that, it is also the case that Fields holds the ball too long sometimes but that is his skill set so ultimately we need an OL that is going to hold up longer so that Fields can get the ball downfield. It doesn't really matter if you held your block for 2.5 seconds if the play call is such that you are doing a 7 step drop because you want to get the ball downfield.

Our offense is not predicated on the quick passing game i.e. the WCO. So yes he will hold the ball waiting for the route to develop. Key point here is we do not run a offense based on the quick passing game i.e. the WCO

This is what and I said and this is your response. My point is your comment is irrelevant to what I said. I am not talking about holding the ball too long because there is a lack of quick passes or because he is waiting for the play to develop. So your response has nothing to do with what I said. That is the point. You are rambling on about something I was never discussing in the post you responded to.

 

[run and shoot]

Having said that, it is also the case that Fields holds the ball too long sometimes but that is his skill set so ultimately we need an OL that is going to hold up longer so that Fields can get the ball downfield. It doesn't really matter if you held your block for 2.5 seconds if the play call is such that you are doing a 7 step drop because you want to get the ball downfield.

Our offense is not predicated on the quick passing game i.e. the WCO. So yes he will hold the ball waiting for the route to develop. Key point here is we do not run a offense based on the quick passing game i.e. the WCO

This is what and I said and this is your response. My point is your comment is irrelevant to what I said. I am not talking about holding the ball too long because there is a lack of quick passes or because he is waiting for the play to develop. So your response has nothing to do with what I said. That is the point. You are rambling on about something I was never discussing in the post you responded to.

What I've pointed out in links #126 and #128 are relevant regardless of ur denial. And I've pointed out in those links where JF should've released the ball

I honed in on the "holds the ball too long" narrative because it's something you've been constantly promoting as a JF flaw. But you never seem to point out ......JF having to use his improvisation skill set to avoid pocket collapsation.

 

[Kurtosis]

Glad I could a refresh on logical fallacies.

 

[Anytime23]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1602775192262131712

 

[Mighty Joe Young]

That's not what this is. Maybe read the methodology before criticizing it.

It partially is that.

The issue is they don't know what the assignments are. If a particular protection scheme calls for one of the linemen to first block a d-lineman on an assist and then disengage before the 2.5 seconds to perhaps engage a potential blitzer shooting the gap, according to this methodology, that lineman who was just doing his job and would be graded out well in the coaching film room would have been given a fail by the ESPN metric.

That's why I said this isn't baseball - for being a team sport, baseball really is a bunch of individual plays where you don't have 2 players on the same team engaging the ball at the same time or even the play at the same time, which makes stats more reliable in baseball - even a 6-4-3 double play is something that happens sequentially, not in parallel, which makes it easier to quantify in stats.

Football is VERY different. It's literally a controlled car crash and people are trying to apply stats to a singular instance in one moment from 11 different players all working simultaneously but doing 11 different things make up the entirety of one play on offense, and going against a defense with the same odds trying to stop it - it literally is organized chaos from a statistical level and nearly unquantifiable without proper context - a context teams don't share because that would give an edge to their opponent scheming against them.

So I stand by what I said.

 

[remydat]

What I've pointed out in links #126 and #128 are relevant regardless of ur denial. And I've pointed out in those links where JF should've released the ball

I honed in on the "holds the ball too long" narrative because it's something you've been constantly promoting as a JF flaw. But you never seem to point out ......JF having to use his improvisation skill set to avoid pocket collapsation.

No it has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. You are free to discuss it with someone else for which it is relevant. Also you don't read. I acknowledged the OL struggles as well in the exact same post. Here was the full post

Think the run block win rate makes sense when you compare to the results actually on the field. I think the pass block win rate is inflated the Bears move the pocket a lot which naturally means defenders are likely too take longer to beat their blocks because the QB is on the move. This is born out by the fact if you look at metrics on blocking on true pass sets vs pass sets where the QB is on the move or uses play action, the Bears are much worse blocking in true pass sets.

Having said that, it is also the case that Fields holds the ball too long sometimes but that is his skill set so ultimately we need an OL that is going to hold up longer so that Fields can get the ball downfield. It doesn't really matter if you held your block for 2.5 seconds if the play call is such that you are doing a 7 step drop because you want to get the ball downfield.

The irony of your rambling is I was actually responding to @ZenBear34 explaining why looking at just Pass Block Win Rate did not tell the whole story and how the OL struggles in true pass sets. So I already acknowledged that the pass blocking is not as good as the stats suggest. I even went on to post the true pass set blocking in post 75 and then told Zen in post 81 that he was ignoring the true pass set blocking data I posted.

So I have Zen on one hand ignoring the fact that the Bears OL struggles in true pass sets and then you on the other hand claiming I don't acknowledge that fact when I clearly did before you even responded to me. You and Zen are like 2 extremes and I am in the middle. The OL isn't as good as he makes it out to be nor is it as bad as you make it out to be.

And Fields still needs to improve on gettint the ball out within the context of the play design.

 

[run and shoot]

And Fields still needs to improve on gettint the ball out within the context of the play design.

It's funny how u distort my succinctly addressing your continued contention of "holds the ball too long".......to rambling.
It's the play design (i.e. slow developing routes) coupled with the OL pocket collapsation that's causing JF to utilize his improvisational skill set.

My additional contention is yes JF is still in the developmental stages as a young Qb. I've always maintained this posture while pointing out the positives of JF's game for balance.

 

[HeHateMe]

It's funny how u distort my succinctly addressing your continued contention of "holds the ball too long".......to rambling.
It's the play design (i.e. slow developing routes) coupled with the OL pocket collapsation that's causing JF to utilize his improvisational skill set.

My additional contention is yes JF is still in the developmental stages as a young Qb. I've always maintained this posture while pointing out the positives of JF's game for balance.

so basically, Justin Fields is putting on a pretty decent display of the Run and Shit offense?

 

[run and shoot]

so basically, Justin Fields is putting on a pretty decent display of the Run and Shit offense?

#136 No but you apparently have a fetish jamming shit down your throat.

 

[HeHateMe]

#136 No but you apparently have a fetish jamming shit down your throat.

this isn't really football talk, or accurate. do you have a source for that?

 

[remydat]

It's funny how u distort my succinctly addressing your continued contention of "holds the ball too long".......to rambling.
It's the play design (i.e. slow developing routes) coupled with the OL pocket collapsation that's causing JF to utilize his improvisational skill set.

My additional contention is yes JF is still in the developmental stages as a young Qb. I've always maintained this posture while pointing out the positives of JF's game for balance.

It is funny you don't understand the point being made. I am not saying he holds the ball long because of slow developing plays or the pocket collapsing as if I see those things happening then I would not fault him. I am saying he holds the ball too long on plays where he has enough time to throw and when the WR is NFL open but he doesn't throw the ball on time.

Like this is vey simple. I am talking about plays at 1:17 of the vid. Kurt Warner is very clear that this ball has to come out on time and it did not. He missed the window to throw which is what lets the pressure get to him. Period. End of story. There is no way shape or form where that example is the OL's fault, the scheme's fault or the WR's fault. It is Justin Fields fault.

There are plenty of other plays where it is the OL or the scheme or the WR but I am not talking about those plays. I am talking about plays where he has time to make the throw but he hesitates. I have no idea what you don't understand about what Warner is explaining and please don't respond by showing me other plays where the pocket collapses before someone gets open. I already acknowledged they exist and I was never talking about those plays.

 

[bamainatlanta]

So what is everyone’s thoughts on Bermuda grass??