Where does LeBron rank...

Raskolnikov

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I think state farm must have bought ad space in your list or something.

Other than that aneurysm it's not terrible I guess.
 

Scoot26

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Top 3 Point Guards:
1. Magic
2. Chris Paul
3. Steph Curry
(this one was tough... a lot of good point guards. I ultimately think Curry will be number 2. Guys like Stockton, Nash, Kidd, Thomas can probably be argued )

Personally, I don't discount Oscar Robertson that much, but I understand your reasoning for it. Of top PG's we have in no particular order there is Cousy, Oscar, Jerry West [who can be more argued as a combo guard I suppose], Isiah Thomas, John Stockton, Gary Payton, Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Russell Westbrook, Curry, and I'd say Lillard is entering the picture.

I can see your rationalization for including Chris Paul. I guess I just wouldn't, but you could make cases for a lot of these guys. I'd probably put Stockton and/or Gary Payton over Chris Paul. Of the list of available PGs here, Magic I think is pretty clear cut #1. After that it gets into a debate.

Top 3 Shooting Guards:
1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Dwyane Wade

MJ is obviously going to be #1. And given the rest of the list of players available, you can really see the SG is something of a modern day creation versus past eras. Could say the same about PG's too. You got Kobe, Wade, Iverson, Drexler, Gervin, and probably Harden entering the picture and really that's it. I don't think by any means Drexler or Gervin are Top 3, so probably won't disagree with Kobe and Wade being there.

Top 3 Small Forwards:
1. LBJ
2. Bird
3. Durant
LBJ pretty indisputable as #1 there. This position gets a bit more interesting. But for a list of general SFs: Bird, Elgin Baylor, Rick Barry, John Havlicek, Julius Erving, Dominique Wilkins, Scottie Pippen, Kevin Durant.

Not sure I'd put Durant in this list yet when you have Julius Erving sitting nicely there as well. I think I'd put him there over Durant, could change in time though.

Top 3 Power Forwards:
1. Duncan
2. Karl Malone
3. KG
(Number 3 for me is tough. Guys like Dirk, KG, Barkley, and soon AD can all be argued. I just went with KG because he was so great all around... Great defender, passer, could shoot, post up... just everything.)

Not much to disagree on here as it's quite subjective. A lot of great players here that I don't feel entirely separate themselves out much over the others: Bob McAdoo, Elvin Hayes, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Dirk Nowitzki, AD has potential to make this list, but dude, stop getting hurt lol.

Granted McAdoo and Hayes probably on a lower tier than the others. I think KG could be interchanged with several other guys on that list though. Duncan/Malone could be flip flopped if we're going off stats versus accomplishments.

Top 3 Centers:
1. Kareem
2. Shaq
3. Hakeem

The most crowded field in NBA history... Also probably quite debatable, though maybe as not as it would seem.

In the list of players: Wilt, Bellamy, Russell, Kareem, Unseld, Lanier, Cowens, Moses, Hakeem, DRob, Ewing, Shaq, Now I get why you're not willing to include Wilt and Bill Russell, and that's completely understandable. Kareem's longevity I think makes him a good case for #1. Shaq had more talent and just sheer ability to dominate for a long time. Hakeem put in the work and developed skills like no other center in my opinion. The rest of the centers, hard for me to put on the same tier as the others.
 
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knoxville7

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Vlade agrees that Jordan wouldn’t of avg 45 in today’s game…says itd be more like 80
 

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Vlade agrees that Jordan wouldn’t of avg 45 in today’s game…says itd be more like 80

hahahahaha, obviously that wouldn't have been realistic. But anybody would be foolish to think MJ couldn't score more today.

The rules were literally changed to make it easier for perimeter players to score. Funny story about that... During the Pistons/Lakers Finals series in 04, Detroit was hand-checking and bumping Kobe regularly on the perimeter which made it very difficult for him to score. He had one of his worst playoff series ever, shooting 37% and averaging 22 points. After that series, Mark Cuban was one of the loudest voices in trying to change the rules to make it easier for perimeter players to score, which would increase excitement and drive more revenue. Cuban, and others, were right. Ruled changes after that series, I believe. But the funny thing is, Cuban's Mavericks faced Wade in the Finals two years later, and Wade tore them up and went on to shoot 97 free throws thanks to all of the calls that were being made as a result of the rule changes.

But yeah... When people talk about how much better players are today, I don't think it's necessarily true. It's easier to score, which means more players will score more points, and it gives the impression that there are much better players today. In reality, if the rules never changed, more of these guys would be struggling to score so many points.

Even a guy like Harden. Sure, he's a great scorer with today's rules. But also, like 90% of his shot attempts are either 3s or driving to the basket. If hand-checking was still allowed, not only would he have a harder time getting open looks from 3, he's also have a harder time getting to the basket... which, as pointed out, is most of his offensive game. So he'd be reduced to taking shots he doesn't typically take. So Harden probably would have averaged less points in the 80s and 90s.

That doesn't mean good scorers today would be bad in other eras... just less effective possibly. And not all of them. Some probably would have done well. The point is, it's easier to score today. Anyone who denies that is lying to themselves. Given that it's easier to score, it only makes sense that someone (MJ) who dominated an era that wasn't meant for perimeter players to dominate would dominate even more in a perimeter-player-friendly era.
 
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clonetrooper264

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Is it not sufficient to say that MJ would probably still lead the league in scoring today? It's not like he'd be Demar Derozan. Who cares if he'd score 30 or 45 or 80 lol
 

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In the 1997-98 season the Houston Rockets took the most 3-pointers of any team with 1,670.

In the 2020-21 season (with ten less games) the Spurs took the least amount of 3-point shots with 2046.

In the 1974-75 season there was no 3-point shot.

Makes no sense to compare players from different eras.
 

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In the 1997-98 season the Houston Rockets took the most 3-pointers of any team with 1,670.

In the 2020-21 season (with ten less games) the Spurs took the least amount of 3-point shots with 2046.

In the 1974-75 season there was no 3-point shot.

Makes no sense to compare players from different eras.

there is no comp for MJ
 

Raskolnikov

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There are many more good shooters today, and hardly any grunt competitors with size and strength can run well enough or space the floor effectively to make it.

15-20 years ago I could shoot better than 50% of the league, and I think it's more like 5-10% Dwight Howard's and young developing players or Simmons and Ball types...

You used to just have 2-3 pure scorers on a team.

Westbrook is the closest thing to MJ you will find. Probably more triple doubles for MJ as more guys around him could spot shoot. His assists and points would go up with possessions alone.

If you couldn't beat on MJ 25 times a game in the lane he would be really much fresher and healthier.

I'm not sure you could stop him with current freedom of movement and the vertical protected zone.

His ability to spin off any open glass...means he would get as many lay-ups as Giannis.
 

houheffna

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Is it not sufficient to say that MJ would probably still lead the league in scoring today? It's not like he'd be Demar Derozan. Who cares if he'd score 30 or 45 or 80 lol
I think that's the case...he'd be the best in the game in my opinion...but he never faced a Durant (I remember people salivating over Derrick McKey's game, because he was 6'10" and could dribble between his legs...) and no Lebron....those boys are physical marvels. I think my issue is when today's players say Jordan would average 45. Its like people have no competitive spirit when they say things like that. That's why I brought it up.
 

Enasic

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I think that's the case...he'd be the best in the game in my opinion...but he never faced a Durant (I remember people salivating over Derrick McKey's game, because he was 6'10" and could dribble between his legs...) and no Lebron....those boys are physical marvels. I think my issue is when today's players say Jordan would average 45. Its like people have no competitive spirit when they say things like that. That's why I brought it up.
Yeah, the individual skill level , athleticism, and freaks of nature in today’s game isn’t even comparable to back in the 80s and 90s. Sure, it was a more physical game back than, but defenses are more complex today and MJ would be facing athletic and physically strong players much more consistently. Rarely was he defended by players with comparable athleticism and size

Jordan would still probably reign supreme today, but it’s very hard to compare eras. He would likely improve his 3 pt shot, but he wouldn’t rely on it, IMO…but who knows. It’s a totally different game not only on the court but player empowerment and the way teams are built. There’s a lot of movement and teaming up.
 

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how old were you in like 1996? 8? Like do you even remember basketball from that time period?

and LOL at the notion it matters if players are more athletic(btw they aren’t stronger) defensively…you can’t touch anyone in today’s game so it doesn’t really matter how faster or stronger guys may or may not be today. Great, defender is more athletic…how’s that going to help him defend Jordan in the post when he can’t touch Jordan? It’s an easy fadeaway jumper all day long with a good bit of and ones in there
 

houheffna

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how old were you in like 1996? 8? Like do you even remember basketball from that time period?

and LOL at the notion it matters if players are more athletic(btw they aren’t stronger) defensively…you can’t touch anyone in today’s game so it doesn’t really matter how faster or stronger guys may or may not be today. Great, defender is more athletic…how’s that going to help him defend Jordan in the post when he can’t touch Jordan? It’s an easy fadeaway jumper all day long with a good bit of and ones in there

Youtube is free...you don't have to be born in the 60's to notice the difference...whole damn library of games going back to the 60's is on Youtube. That includes damn near every Jordan playoff game.
 

knoxville7

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Youtube is free...you don't have to be born in the 60's to notice the difference...whole damn library of games going back to the 60's is on Youtube. That includes damn near every Jordan playoff game.

yes, I’m sure the kids today are watching the entirety of Jordan’s career on YouTube
 

knoxville7

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The point is its there to be watched, a resource for reference. Just didn't understand why his age somehow invalidates his argument.

it was more he was showing his age by thinking defenses today are somehow more challenging
 

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and LOL at the notion it matters if players are more athletic(btw they aren’t stronger) defensively…you can’t touch anyone in today’s game so it doesn’t really matter how faster or stronger guys may or may not be today. Great, defender is more athletic…how’s that going to help him defend Jordan in the post when he can’t touch Jordan? It’s an easy fadeaway jumper all day long with a good bit of and ones in there

The whole argument about players not being that athletic in the 80s and 90s compared to today or whatever is dumb to me.

Everyone's always like, "The guys in the 80s weren't athletic at all... Who did MJ have guarding him?! Craig Ehlo? Pfff, he wouldn't do nearly as well against the supremely athletic guys that play today."

They pick one guy in that era and make it seem like the majority of the league was unathletic. It's like they pretend guys like Joe Ingles aren't in the NBA today.... or that a very unathletic guy (Jokic) just won MVP.

Plus, people make it seem like guys today are these genetic freaks that people 20-30 years ago couldn't touch.... which is not only ridiculous, but false.

In general, when you look at Olympic athletes, there are many records that were broken over 20 years ago that still stand today. I know those are different sports, but the points is: people were still very capable of being fast, jumping high, etc. in the 80s and 90s. That isn't unique to NBA athletes today.

And even if you looked at vertical jumps in the NBA, most of the top guys played a long time ago.

I know this is just one measurement of athleticism, but just more proof that it's a tired argument.

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