Bulls Beat #110 - A Superstar is Born

[dougthonus]

Derrick Rose grabs superstardom by the horns and has launched himself into the national conversation with LeBron, Howard, Wade, and Bosh as rising stars of the East while Vinny Del Negro almost turns a win into a loss.

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Bulls Beat #110

 

[Ralphb07]

Doug you use the what IF too much in your arguments. Noah's fouls was stupid and like you said what were the chances of Pierce missing one FT. I'd rather take my chances of Pierce with that jumper than him at the line. It did work out for us but it still wasn't a good play and can't blame VDN for not having the extra timeout.

Prime example was Ray's final shot. Kirk was in his face just like he was in Pierce's and Ray missed it. Let's use your what if and say What if Kirk fouled Ray at the end? I wouldn't blame Vinny for using timeouts in a close game against a team that is the reining NBA CHAMPS with our team being so young. All you needed was a stop


Our players might not of executed after the timeouts but it doesn't mean it was wrong to take them.


Pierce is a 83% foul shooter which means he's not perfect at the line. 83% means he misses once in a while.

Gordon missed a foul shot early in the game which is a better foul shooter than Pierce so if Gordon hits him the game is tied. You sound like a Boston fan.

Players aren't perfect and he missed it.

 

[Poohdini fan#1]

You talked about the missed free throw but he 83% and he was 5/5 after the first make. He was about due for a miss. there was also a ball that went off Pierce but they called it out on us shortly before the missed free throw.

Guys miss free throws sometimes. nobody shots 100% (I know Rose was 12/12 but that's not easy to do). this miss was karma after a clean block by Noah on big baby gets called a foul.

 

[Ralphb07]

On Derrick Rose I think we need to see how many times he gets to the line tomorrow. If he gets to the line at least 5 times than I think Rose's gets the superstar calls

IMO the playoffs starts a new season and Rose paid his dues which could be why he got them.

Also the hype he is getting only makes it better for him and us going forward. You got Magic talking about him and all he was all over ESPN.

I also said in the Rondo/ Rose thread that IMO the past 2 weeks Rose hit another level and he showed it yesterday. We have a special talent and our future looks bright with him

 

[Ralphb07]

Poohdini fan#1 wrote:

You talked about the missed free throw but he 83% and he was 5/5 after the first make. He was about due for a miss. there was also a ball that went off Pierce but they called it out on us shortly before the missed free throw.

Guys miss free throws sometimes. nobody shots 100% (I know Rose was 12/12 but that's not easy to do). this miss was karma after a clean block by Noah on big baby gets called a foul.

My point exactly. We can dissect that game and say well if this didn't happen. If Pierce shot 100% and never ever missed one I see the point but 83% means out of 10 he'll miss close to two

Another thing is Boston had the final possession so Pierce could of taken the clock down even further.


I just don't see in this game blaming Vinny on the timeouts. In general yes he is horrible with them but this game I wouldn't blame him

My Vinny complain of the game was Brad Miller. Brad looked slow and horrible on the offensive side. He did clean up on the glass which Tyrus can't do as well but I would of brought Tyrus in earlier in the 4th.

 

[Hendu0520]

Rose has definately showed that he will be a superstar. This game will also show him that going to the FT line is how all of the great players score a lot and take over the game down the stretch. It's also how you stay consistent every night b/c shooting FT's is a better percentage shot than any in play jumper. Great things are yet to come for Rose. As for Del Negro I agree with Doug mostly but I don't think they are major problems. All and all Vinny has done a good job. The Bulls really did not play well and they pulled out a victory on the road, that is not the time to criticize him. It's like Max Kellerman says "The time to criticize the fat girl is not when she's coming from the gym all sweaty"

 

[dougthonus]

Forget the fact that Pierce could have won them the game. What if the Celtics won in overtime and we didn't have a chance to advance the ball and get that final shot that could have won it in regulation.

The point is that we used two timeouts early in a situation that NO COACH EVER uses them. EVER. We used one timeout after giving up a single shot. One shot. One. You don't stop a run of one shot. Especially when you've hit two shots in the quarter.

It was just ridiculously wasteful, and it ended up having an extraordinarily high percentage of ruining the game for us.

 

[BullsFanInAtl]

I agree with Doug, I have coached basketball over the past 10 years and you just don't put yourself in late game situations with 2 minutes to go and no time outs. You will get burned too many times. I am quite sure VDN was kicking himself for not having any and I am surprised with all the years on of experience on the bench that one of his assistants did not tell him to be conservative with the time outs. I can't tell you how many games I watch and my son and I both can tell you when he will take a time out before he does it bc they are so ridiculous.

 

[pship07]

Just listened to this episode and just want to comment on the Time-outs. Yes, VDN used silly time outs at very questionable times in the game, but I really don't mind the timing on his last time out. It was right after Allen missed a shot, and Rondo got the rebound and made a jump hook over Noah with 22.1 left in the game.

This most likely should have been the last possession of the game, if we chose to run the clock out for the last shot, but instead we forced a BG running layup which lead to a lucky rebound by Salmons and we got the ball back after the inadvertent whistle.

The playcall was bad for the time-out situation, but the timing of the actual time-out was fine by me. Shot clock is off, no more time outs should be needed. But VDN called the rushed offense and we may have been screwed if Rose didn't end up getting fouled on the inbounds.

 

[Rose1]

Ben Wilson R.I.P.

 

[Mike]

Gotta go with Doug on this one. Vinny is to time outs what Lovie Smith is to challenges. That time out in the 4th (after the Boston 3) was terrible. You'd have to think, as a coach, that you'd want to hold on to a time out for a potential game ending possession. Taking a needless time out then means that you either have to pass on taking one when you actually do need it, or you're left (as we were) with nothing at the end of the game. That said, the fact that we won prevents me from getting too riled up about it. Maybe that's wrong, but I'd hope we Vinny would take something from it, and keep it in mind as the playoffs progress.

Also, I was right with you on the late game Pierce/Rose mismatch. I was pulling out what little hair I have, and yelling "don't switch" at the TV. Thankfully they didn't bite on the last one.

If I did have one minor issue with this episode, it would be your question of whether the league may have "created a superstar on a lazy Saturday". Obviously, I know you're not propagating conspiracy theories, but a statement like that only conjures up negative associations with me. I don't think he was getting "superstar calls", as much as he was simply getting the calls that he deserved. I know that's probably exactly what you meant (and you know, you said as much in the podcast ), but that phrasing just stuck with me. It was nice to see him no longer getting jobbed by the refs though, and I agree that this likely means he's going to be getting that respect for the rest of the playoffs, and most likely beyond.

Anyway, I love the podcast, and that's the main reason I've signed up for this site. I think I've listened to all of the shows in the "network" at one time or another, but yours is the only one to which I listen regularly. I've always liked how you avoid hyperbole, and make an effort to see things from a point of view other than that of a fan (players, management, etc.). Also, sorry to pick on one throw-away phrase in an entire podcast, but you're a major public figure now, and that's just something you're going to have to deal with.

 

[Rerisen]

I think Doug is right in that Game 1 means respect and a lot more Free Throws for D. Rose from now on. It makes me a little uncomfortable about the NBA that this truth exists though.

Once the NBA hype machine, ESPN, ABC, and assorted media, all get behind a player (as they have now done with Rose) the league soon follows suit and the refs as well. I guess you can say that superstars still have to *earn* that privilege by coming out and having a game like Rose did, but it still seems to expose how much entertainment drives the game at the NBA level.

I'm sure Rose would be getting to that step next year anyway by virtue of winning the ROY award. But consequently, say he didn't win the award, had the same exact season, but Lopez or Mayo was just that much better. Then if the Bulls were to instead be swept out of the playoffs with Rose having no truly standout game, but rookie jitters, its quite possible he could play the entire next season still being treated close to the same way by the refs.

Heck, Kirk and Ben have never gotten over that hurdle. Gordon has scored near 20 PPG how many seasons and been the team's leading scorer, but he continues to regularly get beat around at the rim several times a game and rarely gets a call.

Oh well, we now have our superstar and that's a good thing. Having one is as close to a necessity as can be, in order to win a title in this league.

 

[PJ Brown]

I tend to believe that Rose has broken through, but I can't help but admit that a part of me thinks, maybe fears, we'll be on here in 24 hours complaining about how Rose was treated like a no account rookie by the refs in game 2. I certainly hope not, but it has been a nagging concern since listening to the podcast.

 

[step]

but I can't help but admit that a part of me thinks, maybe fears, we'll be on here in 24 hours complaining about how Rose was treated like a no account rookie by the refs in game 2.

While it's possible, I think it's doubtful. The refs tend to pick up their game during the playoffs, they can still be shocking but they tend to make majority of the right calls. If they stay on track, Rose should be fine as long as he doesn't force the issue.

I'll be glad if he doesn't have to go up holding the ball like one expects a football player to just before he's tackled, which he's done so during a spurt in the season where he couldn't buy a call. Then he'll be able to throw up a decent attempt as he seems to brush off most of the contact somehow with ease.

 

[dougthonus]

Mike wrote:

Gotta go with Doug on this one. Vinny is to time outs what Lovie Smith is to challenges. That time out in the 4th (after the Boston 3) was terrible. You'd have to think, as a coach, that you'd want to hold on to a time out for a potential game ending possession. Taking a needless time out then means that you either have to pass on taking one when you actually do need it, or you're left (as we were) with nothing at the end of the game. That said, the fact that we won prevents me from getting too riled up about it. Maybe that's wrong, but I'd hope we Vinny would take something from it, and keep it in mind as the playoffs progress.

Also, I was right with you on the late game Pierce/Rose mismatch. I was pulling out what little hair I have, and yelling "don't switch" at the TV. Thankfully they didn't bite on the last one.

If I did have one minor issue with this episode, it would be your question of whether the league may have "created a superstar on a lazy Saturday". Obviously, I know you're not propagating conspiracy theories, but a statement like that only conjures up negative associations with me. I don't think he was getting "superstar calls", as much as he was simply getting the calls that he deserved. I know that's probably exactly what you meant (and you know, you said as much in the podcast ), but that phrasing just stuck with me. It was nice to see him no longer getting jobbed by the refs though, and I agree that this likely means he's going to be getting that respect for the rest of the playoffs, and most likely beyond.

Anyway, I love the podcast, and that's the main reason I've signed up for this site. I think I've listened to all of the shows in the "network" at one time or another, but yours is the only one to which I listen regularly. I've always liked how you avoid hyperbole, and make an effort to see things from a point of view other than that of a fan (players, management, etc.). Also, sorry to pick on one throw-away phrase in an entire podcast, but you're a major public figure now, and that's just something you're going to have to deal with.

Thanks for the thoughts, and you're right that it wasn't the best phrasing on that one though. There were many things I didn't like about this podcast, but I recorded it while in front of my parrot while trying to stare at him (which prevents him from squawking obnoxiously loudly) and with my kids playing in the basement hoping they didn't scream (which is also why it was so short).

I still feel bad for not giving Joakim Noah a little credit though, and I wish I had gotten into the next game, but it was a jammed weekend, so I didn't have time to re-record it as I thought I might.

Glad you like the show though, and trying to come up with rational views that fit from both the player and managerial side, and things which are realistic rather than hopeful is usually the aim of the show. It's why I accept that the Bulls won't pay the luxury tax even though I really wish they would. You have to go through the five stages to get too acceptance.

I think Kush is still in the anger stage.

 

[dougthonus]

PJ Brown wrote:

I tend to believe that Rose has broken through, but I can't help but admit that a part of me thinks, maybe fears, we'll be on here in 24 hours complaining about how Rose was treated like a no account rookie by the refs in game 2. I certainly hope not, but it has been a nagging concern since listening to the podcast.

It's a valid fear, but I think he'll start getting the fouls he deserves. As most Bulls fans have said over and over again, he frequently doesn't get the calls he should get. So the refs only have to start calling the game fairly.

National TV every game in the playoffs, and I think the officiating will step up. I think the refs in the NBA are usually pretty good, but they have the most impossible job of all officials, so I think that's where people get on them. Plus the playoffs magnify every single call.

 

[Ralphb07]

BullsFanInAtl wrote:

I agree with Doug, I have coached basketball over the past 10 years and you just don't put yourself in late game situations with 2 minutes to go and no time outs. You will get burned too many times. I am quite sure VDN was kicking himself for not having any and I am surprised with all the years on of experience on the bench that one of his assistants did not tell him to be conservative with the time outs. I can't tell you how many games I watch and my son and I both can tell you when he will take a time out before he does it bc they are so ridiculous.

But we had timeouts with 2 minutes left and he took his final one with 30 or so seconds left.

I understand you want timeouts left but you also want to be in the game and have a chance to win. We have no clue if Boston would of went on a major run if the timeouts weren't called and what would the extra timeout mean if the Bulls were down 10

Coaching: Vinny Del Negro is consistently getting across his message about valuing each possession, even if he burned all his timeouts to do so. Doc Rivers is a master at adjustments.

 

[dougthonus]

But we had timeouts with 2 minutes left and he took his final one with 30 or so seconds left.

Any other coach would have had 3 and would have had the final timeout at the end to get a chance to win the game in regulation.

I understand you want timeouts left but you also want to be in the game and have a chance to win. We have no clue if Boston would of went on a major run if the timeouts weren't called and what would the extra timeout mean if the Bulls were down 10

You could use this argument to defend anything. Maybe VDN should just punch Paul Pierce in the balls next game, if he did, then we'll never know what would have happened if he didn't.

Why don't we send Aaron Gray into the game and have him give the ref a big hug, if we don't, we'll never know what might happen.

The timeout didn't bust up momentum. We had hit 2 shots (4 points) they had hit 1 (3 points). We had outscored them in the quarter.

That's not a situation that screams "break their momentum before something desperate happens", not in a close game with 8:45 left to play and the knowledge that there will almost certainly be more clear times to require a timeout.

Like perhaps, when you are in a tie game with 2.6 seconds left and want to win it, or when you could have been down by 1 with 2.6 left and want to win it.

 

[Ralphb07]

Any other coach would have had 3 and would have had the final timeout at the end to get a chance to win the game in regulation.

I've already brought up Mike Brown did the same thing in the final game vs Philly with not having a timeout to advance it

Also VDN took his final timeout with under 30 for what should of been the Bulls last shot. Pierce was foul going up with 2.6 so if Noah doesn't foul which I bet the Bulls staff said don't foul this so called timeout doesn't matter.

If you wanna say next time Vinny might want to save a extra timeout for a freak chance of getting the ball back that's fine but I have a problem with you blaming Vinny for usuing them when Noah shouldn't of even come close to fouling him with all this talk would be moot.

Perfect world Doug we have this extra timeout but in a perfect world I wouldn't be chatting with you because I would have Jessica Alba in my bed right now.

And I feel in this instance that a rare foul happen at the end which anyone should know should never happen did leaving time on the clock.

You could use this argument to defend anything. Maybe VDN should just punch Paul Pierce in the balls next game, if he did, then we'll never know what would have happened if he didn't.

Why don't we send Aaron Gray into the game and have him give the ref a big hug, if we don't, we'll never know what might happen.

The timeout didn't bust up momentum. We had hit 2 shots (4 points) they had hit 1 (3 points). We had outscored them in the quarter.

That's not a situation that screams "break their momentum before something desperate happens", not in a close game with 8:45 left to play and the knowledge that there will almost certainly be more clear times to require a timeout.

Like perhaps, when you are in a tie game with 2.6 seconds left and want to win it, or when you could have been down by 1 with 2.6 left and want to win it.

It's true though Doug. My point is this team is a young team and as much as you or I feel we know about this Vinny is with these players everyday and knows them more than me and you combined.

So he saw something he didn't like and with a young team took a timeout early before a run happen and it was too late

Did you catch the Nuggets game last night? Well if you did you would of saw what happens when you take a timeout too late.

I agree with you on he needs to use them better but I just don't think in this game he used them wrong.

 

[MassHavoc]

Carter Ashton Suspended 20 Games For PED Use


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Maple Leafs forward Carter Ashton has been handed a 20-game suspension, and will forfeit nearly $170,000 in salary, after testing positive for the banned substance clenbuterol. Ashton blamed it on his use of an asthma inhaler:</p>


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More at the link.</p>