Harold Baines Did not deserve to go into the HOF

FirstTimer

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So when I was about 11 years old, we were waiting by the parking lot for the players to come out and Harold is one of them. Wwe were fortunate to be close to the gate and he signed everything for everyone. He even offered to sign my item twice.

The other story I have of Harold is at my first job. I'm walking the floor and here that Harold has been traded. I sobbed. Had to go to the back to pull myself together.
LOL. Grow up.
 

FirstTimer

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The reaction has been uniformly condemnatory everyplace I've looked (except CCS, of course, which has the worst baseball forums I've ever seen), and rightly so. He's the quintessential compiler with Hall of the Very Good level stats. By any standard used, he's a terrible choice. For example:

Black ink: Batting -- 3 (rank 560th), Average HoFer = 27.
Gray ink: Batting -- 40 (rank 655th), Average HoFer = 144.
Hall of Fame monitor: Batting -- 66 (ranking 311th), Likely HoFer = 100.
Hall of Fame standards: Batting -- 44 (rank 121st), Likely HoFer = 50.

Bear in mind that he's a Designated Hitter, not a middle infielder or catcher.

Using BBRef WAR, he ranks 57th among RFs at 38.7. Players in his range include:

Jessie Barfiield. 39.4.
Paul O'Neill. 38.9
Magglio Ordonez. 38.7
Juan Gonzalez. 38.7
Johnny Callison. 38.5
Kirk Gibson. 38.4
Roger Maris. 38.2

All of these players took anywhere from 5394 to 8329 PAs to amass their number. Baines needed 11092 PAs.

Only two RF HoFers are worse choices, both terrible Vets Committee picks, one them courtesy of Frisch: Ross Youngs (32.2) and Tommy McCarthy (16.2). The closest player above Baines is Chuck Klein (37th, 43.6). There isn't a HoFer anywhere near him.

The thinking is that this particular Vets Committee was heavily loaded with White Sox "homers," including owner Jerry Reinsdorf, GM Pat Gillick, manager Tony LaRussa, and 2B Roberto Alomar -- and these folks pushed heavily on Baines's behalf, in the manner of Frankie Frisch from the bad old days of this panel's sustained cronyism. There were 16 committee members, and 12 voters were needed for election. Results:

Smith: 16 votes
Baines: 12
Pinella: 11

None of the other candidates got as many as 5.
There is zero defense for this choice. The best I have heard is that Baines is a "nice guy" and good citizen. Great. He was an average baseball player for 21 years. He wasn't the best at his position for more than a year or so. The only factual argument in this thread so far is that he made brett(Michael) cry when he was traded.

Awesome stuff here.
 

Rory Sparrow

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Another interesting list...

Players on the current HOF ballot with more bWAR than Harold Baines (38.7):

Bonds
Clemens
Mussina
Schilling
Walker
Rolen
Ramirez
Halladay
Jones
Helton
Sheffield
Pettitte
Sosa
Rivera
Kent
McGriff
Berkman
Oswalt
Tejada
Vizquel
Polanco
 

Gustavus Adolphus

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My favorite teams
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Umm What? :aj:

Details.
Lefty can be....abrasive when he thinks he is right. I believe this was after Sandy Hook, and on this forum there were a number of posters with (at the time) younger posters. It was your typical gun rights/laws debate when he came out with the idea of him just going off and shooting a poster's 5 year old in the face.

@TonyMontana can probably give a better description of events than I.
 

brett05

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Another interesting list...

Players on the current HOF ballot with more bWAR than Harold Baines (38.7):

Bonds
Clemens
Mussina
Schilling
Walker
Rolen
Ramirez
Halladay
Jones
Helton
Sheffield
Pettitte
Sosa
Rivera
Kent
McGriff
Berkman
Oswalt
Tejada
Vizquel
Polanco
Any of them #1 at retirement at their position like Harold was?
 

dennehy

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Any of them #1 at retirement at their position like Harold was?
DH shouldn't really even count as a position. It's for guys who aren't equipped to play anywhere else, meaning the hitting bar should be even higher for them. Baines' hitting wouldn't even get him in as a good fielding OF. And there are only half as many DHs as other positions.

Baines signed your ball and made you cry. That's not really reason for him to get into the HOF.
 

brett05

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DH shouldn't really even count as a position. It's for guys who aren't equipped to play anywhere else, meaning the hitting bar should be even higher for them. Baines' hitting wouldn't even get him in as a good fielding OF. And there are only half as many DHs as other positions.

Baines signed your ball and made you cry. That's not really reason for him to get into the HOF.
1) My stories are just that - stories. Anyone thinking that it's anything but is ill.
2) It's an actual position in the game, so yes being the best at an actual position in the game deserves the hall
 

FirstTimer

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1) My stories are just that - stories. Anyone thinking that it's anything but is ill.
2) It's an actual position in the game, so yes being the best at an actual position in the game deserves the hall
Baines was not the top DH of all time when he retired. He was maybe the 4th best.
 

FirstTimer

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Lefty can be....abrasive when he thinks he is right. I believe this was after Sandy Hook, and on this forum there were a number of posters with (at the time) younger posters. It was your typical gun rights/laws debate when he came out with the idea of him just going off and shooting a poster's 5 year old in the face.

@TonyMontana can probably give a better description of events than I.
Surprised he took time away from playing video games in his mom's basement(true story..not made up) to post that.
 

dennehy

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1) My stories are just that - stories. Anyone thinking that it's anything but is ill.
2) It's an actual position in the game, so yes being the best at an actual position in the game deserves the hall
I was hoping you were making an emotional argument because from a logical perspective it's just profoundly stupid.

Even if Baines was the best DH when he retired, and that is far from clear, it's a very poor metric for entrance into the HOF. The first player who retired at each position should get in. And then say he wasn't very good, then the next guy who retires should too. Potentially you've got 3 or 4 of the first 10 who retire at each position in by this metric. Who was the best DH before Baines? Before him? They're both in, even if they aren't really that good.

Makes no sense.
 

brett05

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I was hoping you were making an emotional argument because from a logical perspective it's just profoundly stupid.

Even if Baines was the best DH when he retired, and that is far from clear, it's a very poor metric for entrance into the HOF. The first player who retired at each position should get in. And then say he wasn't very good, then the next guy who retires should too. Potentially you've got 3 or 4 of the first 10 who retire at each position in by this metric. Who was the best DH before Baines? Before him? They're both in, even if they aren't really that good.

Makes no sense.
Baines was clearly the best DH. Edgar was no where close at the time Baines retired. The change of this title is childish and inappropriate.

The Hall of Fame didn't exist until 1936. So yes, they do at times go back and induct folks. And that is a good thing.

The DH started in 1973. Once you had a player qualify for the Hall yes, the best should be put in. What are your suggestions at DH prior to Baines?
 

dennehy

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Baines was clearly the best DH. Edgar was no where close at the time Baines retired. The change of this title is childish and inappropriate.

The Hall of Fame didn't exist until 1936. So yes, they do at times go back and induct folks. And that is a good thing.

The DH started in 1973. Once you had a player qualify for the Hall yes, the best should be put in. What are your suggestions at DH prior to Baines?
Whoever was the first DH to retire should be in by your logic, doesn't matter who because he was the best when he retired and the best when he became eligible. Same with every other position. And probably a few more who retired shortly after the first one unless by some weird chance the first was a really good player.

Do you really not understand how dumb that is?

Also Edgar Martinez was far and away better than Baines when he Baines retired.
 

dennehy

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There's also the obvious idea that DHs don't play the field. Why should they only be compared to other DHs, when they are essentially first basemen or left fielders who aren't good enough to play the field? Only half of the teams use them, weakening the field substantially. And players aren't judged based solely against those who played the same position.

It's obvious why Baines was never close to getting into the HOF in the normal way. He's probably my second favorite player of all time, but it's beyond clear that he's a hall of very good level player.
 

Rory Sparrow

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There's also the obvious idea that DHs don't play the field. Why should they only be compared to other DHs, when they are essentially first basemen or left fielders who aren't good enough to play the field? Only half of the teams use them, weakening the field substantially. And players aren't judged based solely against those who played the same position.
Yes, it would be like having candidates for CCS Hall of Fame class of 2019, and one of the candidates is much weaker than the others but is described as being "the best poster in the CCS White Sox Forum".
 
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