MJ he is not

[??? ??????]

Lebron is amazing. The guy is averaging 42 points a game in a playoff series. His team stinks. We all know that.

Taking Kobe over him is crazy. Even with Gasol, Kobe is having difficulty getting it done (losing last year...tied up right now in the WCF).

What can be gauranteed is the Cleveland will be trying their damndest to get Ben Gordon on for the MLE this summer. If Lebron gets Ben Gordon on his team next year, he's winning the championship. What Lebron can actually do is promise Gordon more money next year, as Cavs will have capspace. Then what he can do is not sign an extension this summer, and threaten to leave if the Cavs don't pay Gordon that capspace.

 

[Hendu0520]

Riker no offense but those sound like crazy statements. All the top players get to the line, and yes Lebron is like Shaq in that he takes the most punishment that DOESN'T get called. How many times when he dunks or makes a layup and didn't get a call do you see a guy hanging off of him?, just like Shaq.

Also the regular season is much different than the playoffs and if you were watching the games you could see that with the intensity up and a team with good sized guards like Orlando gives the Cavs team problems, and really the rest of them just plain suck. It made me sick during the season when everyone thought that Mo Williams put them over the top and Danny Ferry has done such a great job when it was obvious to me that Lebron just had stepped it up another level and Mo isn't that great and he had no help still.

Lol, Magic came onto a great team with hall of famers, played 3 years in college. Yes that was great and is part of Magic's legacy. But Lebron taking that terrible Cleveland team to the finals that year was just amazing and the Spurs were just so much better it wasn't Lebron's fault. Lebron's rookie year wasn't impressive? High school kid averaging over 20ppg and had a game similar to Mike and Magic? How can you not be impressed by his game. Doesn't surprise me though cause it sounds like you don't think Shaq is good either, whoa.

 

[Diddy1122]

I'm sorry I've gotta back Riker on some of his statements. I mean if LeBron won DPOY I seriously woulda puked. His on-ball D is severely lacking, he's just so big and never gets any fouls called on him, it works out to his advantage. I'm truly sick of all the hype around him. The constant Kobe-LeBron muppet commercials, all this "chosen one" crap, and the vitamin water ads. Stern is basically telling everyone "Hey! We want Kobe & LeBron in the Finals or else the whole season is ruined."

I will be laughing my ass off if it ends up Denver vs. Orlando. Good luck marketing that match-up.

 

[houheffna]

I'm sorry I've gotta back Riker on some of his statements. I mean if LeBron won DPOY I seriously woulda puked. His on-ball D is severely lacking, he's just so big and never gets any fouls called on him, it works out to his advantage. I'm truly sick of all the hype around him. The constant Kobe-LeBron muppet commercials, all this "chosen one" crap, and the vitamin water ads. Stern is basically telling everyone "Hey! We want Kobe & LeBron in the Finals or else the whole season is ruined."

I will be laughing my ass off if it ends up Denver vs. Orlando. Good luck marketing that match-up.

Who is the best defensive player on the team? Who else played the central role on this league best defense if not Lebron?

I am cool with Denver vs. Orlando. Cant be worse than Spurs/Pistons or Spurs/Nets...

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

I'm sorry I've gotta back Riker on some of his statements. I mean if LeBron won DPOY I seriously woulda puked. His on-ball D is severely lacking, he's just so big and never gets any fouls called on him, it works out to his advantage. I'm truly sick of all the hype around him. The constant Kobe-LeBron muppet commercials, all this "chosen one" crap, and the vitamin water ads. Stern is basically telling everyone "Hey! We want Kobe & LeBron in the Finals or else the whole season is ruined."

I will be laughing my ass off if it ends up Denver vs. Orlando. Good luck marketing that match-up.

Who is the best defensive player on the team? Who else played the central role on this league best defense if not Lebron?

I am cool with Denver vs. Orlando. Cant be worse than Spurs/Pistons or Spurs/Nets...

Ben Wallace is a 4 time DPOY. But seriously, Lebron is a good defender but he is playing for a defensive coach who has a system derived from his years under Popovich and follows the same schooling as the larry brown and popovich. So I wouldn't give him all the credit but he is good and is allowed more than enough liberties on that end. I personally think Wade was better this past year.

 

[Hendu0520]

I agree the NBA needs to stop forcing the top slot on people, that is the main reason I hate Kobe is because they gave him things before he earned it. Lebron is a good defender, I don't know about Defensive player of the year but he is the best defender on that team which is supposedly the best in the league. The other thing about Lebron, unlike Kobe is that he has matched and surpassed all of the hype that has been thrown his way. I thought he was toast they way they hyped him out of high school and I didn't like him at first, but after his rookie season I just shook my head and said he is even better than the hype. His jumper has gotten so much better and he is only going to improve in other aspects in his game. How good is he going to be in 3 years? The pressure of comparisons to Jordan crushed Kobe and crushed what could have been at least 4 if not 6 in a row with Shaq/Kobe Lakers, Lebron has flourished and shook the pressure off.

Why does everyone hate the puppet commercials? I don't even think there should be a Lebron/Kobe argument because LBJ is just better but I still think they are funny, lighten up.

 

[MADman24]

Diddy1122 wrote:

I'm sorry I've gotta back Riker on some of his statements. I mean if LeBron won DPOY I seriously woulda puked. His on-ball D is severely lacking, he's just so big and never gets any fouls called on him, it works out to his advantage. I'm truly sick of all the hype around him. The constant Kobe-LeBron muppet commercials, all this "chosen one" crap, and the vitamin water ads. Stern is basically telling everyone "Hey! We want Kobe & LeBron in the Finals or else the whole season is ruined."

I will be laughing my ass off if it ends up Denver vs. Orlando. Good luck marketing that match-up.

I also don't think he should have won defensive player of the year but the DPOY often goes to the players who are near the top of the league in blocks or steals so it's understandable why he was in the discussion and he was on a great defensive team. Hype doesn't make you average 40 in a series, hype doesn't make you have a PER of 39.5 in the playoffs, he is really that good.

Those commercials are Nike and Vitamin Water commercials I'm tired of everyone blaming the league and those puppet commercial are funny, both companies are just trying to take advantage of what is a potentially unique opportunity which now looks like won't happen. And while I don't really care who's going to win the championship, who can argue with the fact seeing Kobe and LeBron go at would be entertaining. If you are judging him and other players solely based on winning rings then you are simply being unfair and likely hypocritical.

This is the last I'll say on this if you don't like LeBron fine, but it does no good to pretend he's not the best player in the league and already one of the best ever cause it is obvious to everyone not blinded by hatred or some feeling to protect a former player's legacy, in the case of this thread MJ, that he is tremendous and provides legendary dominance on the court.

 

[Hendu0520]

couldn't have said it better myself madman!

 

[Riker]

OK, since some of you are willing to compare MJ and his alleged Lebron-like ref treatment into this.

LeBron James who has already broken Dwyane Wade's record in Free Throw Attempts in a Playoff series, is now looking to break another Playoff Free Throw Attempt record, this one held by Shaquille O'neal.

James, averaging 13.7 FTA these Playoffs, is on pace to break O'Neal's Playoff record for Total FTA this season, ... in FEWER GAMES!

O'Neal, with a Playoff FTA record of 296 FTA after 23 games, is closely followed behind James' 151 FTA after only 11 games! As of May 25th, at the pace James is heading, and assuming he makes it to the NBA Finals, it will only take him a total of 22 games (1 game less than O'Neal) to break O'Neal's nine-year old Playoff record.

James already has set the record for FTA in a Playoff Series with 19.3 FTA against Pistons; a record previously held by Dwyane Wade in 2006 against the Mavericks at 16.2 FTA.

James, in his young career, is also closely placed 2nd behind O'Neal in Playoff Career FTA at 10.5 per game, with O'Neal holding the top spot at just 11.2 per game; just 0.7 attempts ahead of James.


James, who is averaging 15 free throws per game in the playoffs and only just started to defend Rashard Lewis and Hedo Turkoglu after hiding early in the series on Rafer Alston, is averaging 1.6 fouls per game in the playoffs and never has been in foul trouble with a three fouls the most he's been called for in any game.


Bryant is averaging 2.6 fouls and has had four fouls four times. Carmelo Anthony is averaging 3.9 fouls per game and five times has had five and fouled out once. Howard is averaging more than four fouls per game and has fouled out of three playoff games and had five fouls three times.

Jordan actually fouled out of Game 4 and averaged four fouls per game in that opening series against the Cavs. Five more times in those playoffs as the Bulls beat the Knicks in six and lost to the Pistons in six Jordan had five fouls in a game. It's the playoffs. The play is rougher than the regular season. You get involved in tougher matchups, though James does rest on defense a lot other than when he is chasing guys from behind for highlight blocks. But Jordan always had a high number of playoff fouls. The season before when the Bulls beat Cleveland in five games, Jordan fouled out of Game 4 in Cleveland. In 1991 when the Bulls won their first championship, Jordan was in foul trouble with five in two of the five Finals games. It simply defies logic to see James at the free throw line so much and virtually never being called for a foul.




As for those stats, PER bullshit - hang it about your beds and admire it before bedtime.


I couldn't give a crap about numbers he puts up, Wilt Chamberlain scored 50 points, 25 rebounds and probably 10 blocks a game.


Too bad "scrubs" like Robert Horry and Steve Kerr made more difference to their teams with their miserable stats and clutch games than the Big Wilt "let me score some more tonight" Chamberlain.


Stat padding is great.

Blow the whistle.

 

[Hendu0520]

I agree Riker stats aren't everything but he gets to the line because he drives more than even a young Jordan did. Lebron knows his biggest strength is the fact that he is so big and fast and uses his power to his advantage. He is Shaq and MJ put together in regards to picking up fouls, but he gets no more special treatment than Kobe, Wade, or Dwight Howard, who fouled out a few times in that last game against the Cavs. I don't have to look at the stats to know that Lebron is the best player in the league. A lot of girls have been watching with me and my boyz who don't know anything about basketball. They feel so bad for Lebron right now and they said it was obvious to them right away that Lebron was the best player on both teams and the rest of his team is not very good. They also think he is bette than Kobe as well. I know that is anecdotal evidence but it is as much of an unbiased opinion as you can get, and shows that maybe your hate for Lebron is clouding some of your judgement.

I agree a lot of Wilt's stats were inflated but he was awesome, maybe not as good as old timers make him but he is still top 10 of all time.

Lastly, you started your post with a stat about fouls and then criticized the PER stat.

 

[Shakes]

houheffna wrote:

Who is the best defensive player on the team? Who else played the central role on this league best defense if not Lebron?

Oralndo was the league's best defense, and their best defensive player won the defensive player of the year award for it. I don't know what anyone is complaining about here ...

 

[Shakes]

Riker wrote:

OK, since some of you are willing to compare MJ and his alleged Lebron-like ref treatment into this.

LeBron James who has already broken Dwyane Wade's record in Free Throw Attempts in a Playoff series, is now looking to break another Playoff Free Throw Attempt record, this one held by Shaquille O'neal.

So you admit that LeBron is the best ever at a very valuable basketball skill: drawing fouls? How generous of you, I thought you hated LeBron and would never admit he did anything good!

Seriously though, I don't see why you think the fact teams can't defend LeBron without fouling him is in some way a negative about LeBron.

On defense, leaving aside that your facts aren't even straight (LeBron was called for 5 fouls last night), it's perfectly logical that a perimeter defender agains a team that shoots a lot of threes should rarely be in foul trouble. The guys defending Dwight Howard are the ones who have been picking up most of the fouls, just as you would expect.

I have no idea why you're determined to see a ref conspiracy for LeBron, or why you think the fact his team isn't winning is due to stat padding on his behalf. I mean it couldn't possibly be that his guards have completely forgotten how to hit wide open shots that they've hit all year?

 

[??? ??????]

Lebron is clearly better than Kobe Bryant. The only stats where Kobe leads (that is in PPG, RPG, APG, SPG, BPG, TO, FG%, 3PT%, eFG%, TS%, PER, WS, DWS, OWS) I believe are turnovers and 3PT%. That's it. Lebron has a clear statistical advantage, and that is compounded by the fact that Lebron got more wins for a team with less talent than Kobe's.

 

[Newskoolbulls]

??? ?????? wrote:

Lebron is clearly better than Kobe Bryant. The only stats where Kobe leads (that is in PPG, RPG, APG, SPG, BPG, TO, FG%, 3PT%, eFG%, TS%, PER, WS, DWS, OWS) I believe are turnovers and 3PT%. That's it. Lebron has a clear statistical advantage, and that is compounded by the fact that Lebron got more wins for a team with less talent than Kobe's.

In the East.

 

[??? ??????]

Newskoolbulls wrote:

??? ?????? wrote:

Lebron is clearly better than Kobe Bryant. The only stats where Kobe leads (that is in PPG, RPG, APG, SPG, BPG, TO, FG%, 3PT%, eFG%, TS%, PER, WS, DWS, OWS) I believe are turnovers and 3PT%. That's it. Lebron has a clear statistical advantage, and that is compounded by the fact that Lebron got more wins for a team with less talent than Kobe's.

In the East.

The East had 2 other near 60 win teams (I believe Celtics did have 60, Magic had 59). The East only had 1 team with less than 30 wins, the Wizards at 19 wins. There were 6 sub 30 win teams in the West, with the Warriors with 29, Minnesota and Memphis with 24, Oklahoma City with 23, Clippers with 19, and Kings with 17.

So the Cavs had more games against near-60 win teams than the Lakers did, and also had less games against sub-30 win teams.

 

[Shakes]

Newskoolbulls wrote:

??? ?????? wrote:

Lebron is clearly better than Kobe Bryant. The only stats where Kobe leads (that is in PPG, RPG, APG, SPG, BPG, TO, FG%, 3PT%, eFG%, TS%, PER, WS, DWS, OWS) I believe are turnovers and 3PT%. That's it. Lebron has a clear statistical advantage, and that is compounded by the fact that Lebron got more wins for a team with less talent than Kobe's.

In the East.

Both the Lakers and the Cavs had better records against the West than the East. The East is the stronger conference these days.

 

[houheffna]

Oralndo was the league's best defense, and their best defensive player won the defensive player of the year award for it. I don't know what anyone is complaining about here ...

Orlando did not have the league's best defense statistically. Cleveland was tied for 1st in FG% against and Points allowed per game as a team. I never doubted that Howard was DPOY but give Cleveland their respect.

 

[houheffna]

OK, since some of you are willing to compare MJ and his alleged Lebron-like ref treatment into this.

LeBron James who has already broken Dwyane Wade's record in Free Throw Attempts in a Playoff series, is now looking to break another Playoff Free Throw Attempt record, this one held by Shaquille O'neal.

James, averaging 13.7 FTA these Playoffs, is on pace to break O'Neal's Playoff record for Total FTA this season, ... in FEWER GAMES!

O'Neal, with a Playoff FTA record of 296 FTA after 23 games, is closely followed behind James' 151 FTA after only 11 games! As of May 25th, at the pace James is heading, and assuming he makes it to the NBA Finals, it will only take him a total of 22 games (1 game less than O'Neal) to break O'Neal's nine-year old Playoff record.

James already has set the record for FTA in a Playoff Series with 19.3 FTA against Pistons; a record previously held by Dwyane Wade in 2006 against the Mavericks at 16.2 FTA.

James, in his young career, is also closely placed 2nd behind O'Neal in Playoff Career FTA at 10.5 per game, with O'Neal holding the top spot at just 11.2 per game; just 0.7 attempts ahead of James.


James, who is averaging 15 free throws per game in the playoffs and only just started to defend Rashard Lewis and Hedo Turkoglu after hiding early in the series on Rafer Alston, is averaging 1.6 fouls per game in the playoffs and never has been in foul trouble with a three fouls the most he's been called for in any game.


Bryant is averaging 2.6 fouls and has had four fouls four times. Carmelo Anthony is averaging 3.9 fouls per game and five times has had five and fouled out once. Howard is averaging more than four fouls per game and has fouled out of three playoff games and had five fouls three times.

Jordan actually fouled out of Game 4 and averaged four fouls per game in that opening series against the Cavs. Five more times in those playoffs as the Bulls beat the Knicks in six and lost to the Pistons in six Jordan had five fouls in a game. It's the playoffs. The play is rougher than the regular season. You get involved in tougher matchups, though James does rest on defense a lot other than when he is chasing guys from behind for highlight blocks. But Jordan always had a high number of playoff fouls. The season before when the Bulls beat Cleveland in five games, Jordan fouled out of Game 4 in Cleveland. In 1991 when the Bulls won their first championship, Jordan was in foul trouble with five in two of the five Finals games. It simply defies logic to see James at the free throw line so much and virtually never being called for a foul.




As for those stats, PER bullshit - hang it about your beds and admire it before bedtime.


I couldn't give a crap about numbers he puts up, Wilt Chamberlain scored 50 points, 25 rebounds and probably 10 blocks a game.


Too bad "scrubs" like Robert Horry and Steve Kerr made more difference to their teams with their miserable stats and clutch games than the Big Wilt "let me score some more tonight" Chamberlain.


Stat padding is great.

Blow the whistle.

Again, those black and white televisions fool you every time.

Have you watched what this guy does offensively. He has no choice, he takes jumpers, he drives to the basket. Jordan played in a different time, in the 80's they didn't call fouls the way they do now, in the 90's, people started to notice a difference. Jordan noticeably got his calls and got the benefit from the doubt from referees. Did you see Jordan's last shot as a Bull? He shoved Russell out to the parking lot!

Like I said before, Kobe is every bit as good as MJ athletically. LeBron, there has been no precedence for him in this league, ever.

 

[Shakes]

houheffna wrote:

Oralndo was the league's best defense, and their best defensive player won the defensive player of the year award for it. I don't know what anyone is complaining about here ...

Orlando did not have the league's best defense statistically. Cleveland was tied for 1st in FG% against and Points allowed per game as a team. I never doubted that Howard was DPOY but give Cleveland their respect.

Yes they did, you can't use points per game because teams play at different pace. Check out points per 100 possessions, Orlando is 0.5 ahead of Cleveland for the regular season (source http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2009.html).

 

[houheffna]

I think it was obvious that Cleveland forced teams to play at their pace and that is how they beat other teams. I don't believe that off of that one stat anyone would say that Orlando was the most dominant defense in the league. Its Cleveland, hands down.