Now that Kareem Hunt is a ****ing BROWN does Nagy finally figure out how to use Howar

mecha

Well-known member
Howard didn't really change. The O-line struggled to run block for him this year.
Long going out was the obvious difference maker to me. rest of you may disagree... cause "Long is done" or something like that.
 

botfly10

CCS Donator
Using 3rd string backs so much throughout the season was the one and only infuriating thing about Nagy to me. Everything else he tried that didn't work, I could understand his thinking at least.

But the fucking scrub 3rd string backs. Especially since both Howard and Cohen are perfectly capable pass blockers. Holy fuck, that shit drove me crazy.
 

Xuder O'Clam

CCS Donator
Using 3rd string backs so much throughout the season was the one and only infuriating thing about Nagy to me. Everything else he tried that didn't work, I could understand his thinking at least.

But the fucking scrub 3rd string backs. Especially since both Howard and Cohen are perfectly capable pass blockers. Holy fuck, that shit drove me crazy.
Particularly on 3rd downs.
 

botfly10

CCS Donator
Howard is one dimensional. Yes, he improved his hands, but he is way to limited for a modern offense. He's a very good back in an old school zone run based offenese. Those are few and far between these days for a reason.

And for the record, Nagy did figure out how to get better production from Howard as the season went on. At the end of the day it's much easier to find a player who fits your system and philosophy then it is to completely alter your system for a running back.
Completely alter your system? You mean run more zone blocking plays which the entire OL did for the last 3 years with a high degree of cohesion and success? That is completely altering the offense? What the fuck?
 

remydat

Well-known member
You know if I were a new coach I would definitely change the blocking system and destroy the one good thing about the offense in the prior year.

I would then hope fans of me would if ignore the fact that 24 teams ran that old blocking scheme at least 50% of the time last year and instead claim the old system is dying.
 

msadows

Well-known member
Completely alter your system? You mean run more zone blocking plays which the entire OL did for the last 3 years with a high degree of cohesion and success? That is completely altering the offense? What the fuck?
I've read before nagy likes to use gap schemes because it allows the defense to see the same exact rpo play multiple times, and you can run it the same exact way multiple times, so you can eventually run a different option or motion.
 

Visionman

Well-known member
I've read before nagy likes to use gap schemes because it allows the defense to see the same exact rpo play multiple times, and you can run it the same exact way multiple times, so you can eventually run a different option or motion.
You mean there's a reason for it other than to just make Howard look bad???
 

botfly10

CCS Donator
I've read before nagy likes to use gap schemes because it allows the defense to see the same exact rpo play multiple times, and you can run it the same exact way multiple times, so you can eventually run a different option or motion.
Yeah, that makes perfect sense. But we also know that Nagy does a lot of shit. Not just one thing.

I am not buying the idea that mixing in some zone runs for Howard was some huge burden on the offense. In fact, the bears did just that with a lot of success over the last 4 games.
 

msadows

Well-known member
You know if I were a new coach I would definitely change the blocking system and destroy the one good thing about the offense in the prior year.

I would then hope fans of me would if ignore the fact that 24 teams ran that old blocking scheme at least 50% of the time last year and instead claim the old system is dying.
Don't really have the stats in front of me to back it up, but the Rams run almost no RPO's.

Go look at how much zone runs the chiefs, eagles, packers, etc. ran.

My guess is Nagy didn't just change up the blocking scheme just because. He changed it because it didn't fit what he wanted to do with all the moving parts in his offense.

One thing people also don't seem to get, is that Jordan Howard was NEVER a great runningback. I guess Windy gets it. JHow is a good back, but he lacks any kind of explosion or playmaking ability. He can't cut on a dime, has no real finesse in his run game, lacks acceleration or top end speed, and is below average in the pass game at best.

Howards ONLY elite trait is his vision, which is why he fits a zone scheme because he can wait for the hole to develop and is great at reading it and making one cut to hit the hole. Issue is, even in his first two years he'd hit the hole and get to the second level untouched just to go down.

The answer isn't to switch up Nagy's scheme towards Howards skillset. Why do that when he will be gone in a year? The answer now is to draft his replacement in the mid rounds, who is a better fit, and hope for the best.
 

msadows

Well-known member
Yeah, that makes perfect sense. But we also know that Nagy does a lot of shit. Not just one thing.

I am not buying the idea that mixing in some zone runs for Howard was some huge burden on the offense. In fact, the bears did just that with a lot of success over the last 4 games.
They did, but they also ran a completely different offense than Nagy wants to run IMO.

It seemed to me like they ran a lot less of those deceiving motion plays, ran a lot less RPO's, etc. compared to earlier in the year. It was essentially a John Fox offense that actually didn't suck. I very much doubt that Nagy wants to play ball dominant foxball next year if he has to option not to. He wants to be the Chiefs. I think those last 4 weeks of playcalling was a direct result of Trubisky's struggles and not Jordan Howards. It's no surprise it took until the horrible game versus the Rams for Nagy to switch up the playcalling to a more conservative run heavy attack.
 

Xuder O'Clam

CCS Donator
Yeah, that makes perfect sense. But we also know that Nagy does a lot of shit. Not just one thing.

I am not buying the idea that mixing in some zone runs for Howard was some huge burden on the offense. In fact, the bears did just that with a lot of success over the last 4 games.
Here's a quote from a KC beat reporter:

"But what Bears fans should really like is Nagy’s creativity and knack for calling plays. Since he took over as the primary playcaller for coach Andy Reid in early December, the Chiefs’ offense came alive again after a miserable two-month slump, as Nagy consistently dialed up the zone-running plays they used to so much success earlier this season. Nagy is a sharp guy who also increased the reliance on run-pass options that Smith likes so much and cut down the “trick-ya” plays the offense had grown too fond of." (an interesting quote in many regards)

Heistand ran an inside zone blocking scheme at Notre Dame. Variety seems to be Nagy's thing.
 

remydat

Well-known member
Don't really have the stats in front of me to back it up, but the Rams run almost no RPO's.

Go look at how much zone runs the chiefs, eagles, packers, etc. ran.

My guess is Nagy didn't just change up the blocking scheme just because. He changed it because it didn't fit what he wanted to do with all the moving parts in his offense.

One thing people also don't seem to get, is that Jordan Howard was NEVER a great runningback. I guess Windy gets it. JHow is a good back, but he lacks any kind of explosion or playmaking ability. He can't cut on a dime, has no real finesse in his run game, lacks acceleration or top end speed, and is below average in the pass game at best.

Howards ONLY elite trait is his vision, which is why he fits a zone scheme because he can wait for the hole to develop and is great at reading it and making one cut to hit the hole. Issue is, even in his first two years he'd hit the hole and get to the second level untouched just to go down.

The answer isn't to switch up Nagy's scheme towards Howards skillset. Why do that when he will be gone in a year? The answer now is to draft his replacement in the mid rounds, who is a better fit, and hope for the best.
Why do it? To increade chances of winning this year. Pretty simple. He did it at end of the year and we looked fine against Minny and Pack.
 

remydat

Well-known member
Here's a quote from a KC beat reporter:

"But what Bears fans should really like is Nagy’s creativity and knack for calling plays. Since he took over as the primary playcaller for coach Andy Reid in early December, the Chiefs’ offense came alive again after a miserable two-month slump, as Nagy consistently dialed up the zone-running plays they used to so much success earlier this season. Nagy is a sharp guy who also increased the reliance on run-pass options that Smith likes so much and cut down the “trick-ya” plays the offense had grown too fond of." (an interesting quote in many regards)

Heistand ran an inside zone blocking scheme at Notre Dame. Variety seems to be Nagy's thing.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-ranking-all-32-nfl-teams-through-week-7-by-zone-blocking-carries

Chiefs ran zone almost 60% of time. Of that 71% was outside zone. Bears were at 81% zone and 57% outside zone.

So not sure why we some pretending more zone would destroy his playbook or gameplan.
 

msadows

Well-known member
Why do it? To increade chances of winning this year. Pretty simple. He did it at end of the year and we looked fine against Minny and Pack.
Same offense that scored 15 points in the playoffs, huh?

Can't have it both ways Remy.

We were never going anywhere with the offense we ran the last 4 weeks of the season. I personally thought we could, but it didn't work in the first half of the Eagles game and left the bears shellshocked.

You essentially want us to run an improved version of Foxball. Then bitch when we score 9 points playing foxball.
 

remydat

Well-known member
Same offense that scored 15 points in the playoffs, huh?

Can't have it both ways Remy.

We were never going anywhere with the offense we ran the last 4 weeks of the season. I personally thought we could, but it didn't work in the first half of the Eagles game and left the bears shellshocked.

You essentially want us to run an improved version of Foxball. Then bitch when we score 9 points playing foxball.
Dont know as dont have stats on whether we ran zone or gap in playoff game.

Umm once again Chiefs ran mostly zone as well so not Fox ball.
 

Rory Sparrow

Well-known member
One thing people also don't seem to get, is that Jordan Howard was NEVER a great runningback. I guess Windy gets it

Issue is, even in his first two years he'd hit the hole and get to the second level untouched just to go down.
Kind of a bizarre comment, even allowing for the usual CCS revisionist history of Bears who have fallen out of favor. Not sure what is meant by Howard never being a great RB…what is your criteria? How many RBs in the history of the NFL have had seasons of 1300+ yards, 5.0+ AVG and only 2 fumbles? You’ve absolved Nagy from any responsibility by basically saying Howard was never any good. I liked your throwaway line at the end of Howard hitting a hole untouched and just going down his first two years…




That said, I don’t think anyone can argue what you are saying regarding Nagy’s aversion to using the same blocking on runs and passes to make his RPOs more effective at Howard’s expense, but (obviously) the issue is regarding the wisdom of that inflexibility. Either way, I don’t think Howard’s lack of ability is the real problem.
 
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