Otto Porter is now a Bull

knoxville7

Well-known member
Yes. Markenan is solid, and no he's not a star, but a definite starter. LaVine is just an offense killer
But you think trae young has more potential than markannen?? That’s crazy talk. I ask since I’m assuming you think young has the highest upside on the hawks roster
 

RacerX

Silicon Valley CA Bears H
Ha anyone that remembers me from previous years on here know I’m no homer. The bulls don’t lack talent and athleticism. You’re telling me that lavine and markannen lack athleticism??? You’re crazy if you think that. What the bulls lack is experience, defense, and coaching. Sure, other teams have good young talent as well. Tell me why Memphis would rather have their roster than the bulls for example. You scream homerism and tell me I’m wrong, but don’t take the time to give examples of why some of those teams would rather have their rosters over ours. Like I also said before, some of those teams I listed may have more talent, but are in financial hell while being a middling playoff team with no realistic way of improving what they have currently.
Nah, not gonna try to convince you otherwise. The market spoke when it comes to Lavine, zero FA action for him other than Sac and GarPax. In other words, only losing idiot franchises have to settle for the league scraps.

Lavine is one of the worst defenders in the NBA, has been injured, and is a volume scorer. No one gives a shit that he can get to the rim, that's hardly the measure of a star player in and of itself.
 

knoxville7

Well-known member
Nah, not gonna try to convince you otherwise. The market spoke when it comes to Lavine, zero FA action for him other than Sac and GarPax. In other words, only losing idiot franchises have to settle for the league scraps.

Lavine is one of the worst defenders in the NBA, has been injured, and is a volume scorer. No one gives a shit that he can get to the rim, that's hardly the measure of a star player in and of itself.
The market for lavine was impacted by being a rfa and commanding a contract few teams had the cap room to afford at that time. You act like no teams want the guy, when that’s not the case. I never said he is a star player. You are saying that because he isn’t a star player that he must suck, as if there’s nothing in between. I said he has his shortcomings that he needs to work on. And yes, people do give a shit he can get to the rim. That’s how you get fouled and get easy points at the line when an offense is struggling....it does have value. He is also a solid 3p shooter, which years ago everyone was bitching and begging for. Now we have a little bit, and people still bitch. Finding guys that can hit 3’s AND play defense at a high level are extremely rare. It’s about building a roster that complements each other’s deficiencies. If lavine can improve just a little bit in his weak areas, he will be a very good nba player for the next 10 years or so in the league. Just because he won’t be winning mvps doesn’t mean he is garbage
 

RacerX

Silicon Valley CA Bears H
I didn't say he sucked, but I'm saying this: on a quality/competitive team he is coming off the bench and playing maybe 15-20 minutes per night, and is a scoring role player on the second unit. That's it, that's where he should be slotted.

No one outside this MB believes he is a building block.

Competing for a title requires at least 2-3 legit all-stars to build around. The Bulls have none. The only one with potential to grow into one is LM.

Dunn is hot garbage as a starter, and Carter will be a nice/solid role player, perhaps even a decent starter - but not a franchise building block. This team is not even at Square One, they don't have talent, coaching, nor the FO to contend.

P.S. - as I said before, I do like the Porter trade.
 

knoxville7

Well-known member
I didn't say he sucked, but I'm saying this: on a quality/competitive team he is coming off the bench and playing maybe 15-20 minutes per night, and is a scoring role player on the second unit. That's it, that's where he should be slotted.

No one outside this MB believes he is a building block.

Competing for a title requires at least 2-3 legit all-stars to build around. The Bulls have none. The only one with potential to grow into one is LM.

Dunn is hot garbage as a starter, and Carter will be a nice/solid role player, perhaps even a decent starter - but not a franchise building block. This team is not even at Square One, they don't have talent, coaching, nor the FO to contend.

P.S. - as I said before, I do like the Porter trade.
We obviously disagree highly on lavine. I see a guy who has gotten better since he first came in the league, has freakish athleticism, and has shown he is fully recovered from surgery. He’s shooting a career high Fg % despite having to take a lot of last second desperation shots because his teammates are poor shooters. Let’s not forget, the first half of the season so far it was basically just him out there having to try and do everything because lauri was hurt. Let’s not forget he is just 23. And quite honestly, if everyone on this message board thinks he isn’t a building block of some sort...that’s probably a good sign for lavines future prospects LOL

I also agree Dunn is not a starting PG. carter I think you’re quite unfair about considering he is 19 and played about 20 games or so before getting hurt. There’s potential there for an athletic rim protector that rebounds well and can get you easy buckets without having to call any plays for him I.e. offensive putbacks and the occasional alley
 

RacerX

Silicon Valley CA Bears H
Lavine has NEVER scored positive in net rating while on the floor. Not even close.

He is statistically the worst defender of any starting shooting guard, does not pass nor create for his teammates, and when you consider his 3-pt shooting is ranked #37 among shooting guards - he’s just not a valuable all-around asset.

Doesn’t really matter though, with GarPax at the helm we will continue to swirl the drain indefinitely.
 

knoxville7

Well-known member
Lavine has NEVER scored positive in net rating while on the floor. Not even close.

He is statistically the worst defender of any starting shooting guard, does not pass nor create for his teammates, and when you consider his 3-pt shooting is ranked #37 among shooting guards - he’s just not a valuable all-around asset.

Doesn’t really matter though, with GarPax at the helm we will continue to swirl the drain indefinitely.
Like I said, he has had to take a lot of desperation shots for this team this year, thus the #37 ranking among 2 guards...which is generally the best group of shooters to be compared to besides. Before he came to the bulls and was asked to take those bailout shots, he was hitting 39% from 3 with Minnesota. That would rank him quite a bit higher among that elite group of shooters. But no, just look at the numbers and say he sucks without taking into consideration the crap situation he has been in since coming to the bulls. Put him on golden state and he probably shoots 45% from 3 because he would get ridiculous looks playing with other good players
 

dennehy

Well-known member
Lavine is a heater sixth man on a decent team, something like Jamal Crawford but worse on defense.
 

Crystallas

Three if by air
Staff member
Yes, LaVine would be a 6MOTY candidate every season, and whatever team that had him as a proper sixth man would be a top-4 conference team. He's too tunnel visioned to be a PG and too sloppy on defense to be a starting SG on a good team, but good enough at everything else that he could come off the bench and cover minutes for both positions while helping the team more than hurting.

It's what I've been saying for almost a year, just glad to see someone else think he's 6man material. And in a complimentary way, not as an insult either.
 

knoxville7

Well-known member
Yes, LaVine would be a 6MOTY candidate every season, and whatever team that had him as a proper sixth man would be a top-4 conference team. He's too tunnel visioned to be a PG and too sloppy on defense to be a starting SG on a good team, but good enough at everything else that he could come off the bench and cover minutes for both positions while helping the team more than hurting.

It's what I've been saying for almost a year, just glad to see someone else think he's 6man material. And in a complimentary way, not as an insult either.
So you believe he is at his ceiling currently? You believe that at age 23 he is done developing and can’t get better at his weaknesses? :smh:
 

nbafan23

New member
You know who else was a good 6th man of the year candidate? Bobby Portis. Giving you scoring, rebounding, defense, and energy off the bench is going to be missed.
 

anotheridiot

Active member
You know who else was a good 6th man of the year candidate? Bobby Portis. Giving you scoring, rebounding, defense, and energy off the bench is going to be missed.
It does no good when he continues to take out team mates in the first practice of the preseason. Dude is bat shit crazy, I am glad he is gone and not going to be receiving my season ticket dollars on an inflated contract. You put him on a dominant team and he is the one getting the ticky tack calls against them.
 

Crystallas

Three if by air
Staff member
So you believe he is at his ceiling currently? You believe that at age 23 he is done developing and can’t get better at his weaknesses? :smh:
6MOTY Candidate is an upgrade over where LaVine is at right now. So obviously I don't believe he is at his ceiling. You can't teach court vision, and if he's not interested in playing defense now in an era where MVP candidates are often among the worst defenders in the league, I don't think he is going to put the work in on defense to jump from being a liability to good enough to cover top-tier starters for heavy minutes on a daily basis. I have a long record of being patient with young players when others are ready to sell them short, just look at my history of posting. So when I don't have a lot of hope for someone developing one facet of their game to where it *needs* to be on a winning team, give me some credit.
 
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knoxville7

Well-known member
6MOTY Candidate is an upgrade over where LaVine is at right now. So obviously I don't believe he is at his ceiling.
But it’s not possible for him to develop beyond that? And I would argue he’s already at that level, he just doesn’t come off the bench to qualify for 6th man. If he did, he’d already be in line for it
 

knoxville7

Well-known member
This trade will 100% negatively impact our chances at a top 3 pick.

Just dumb.
Bulls were going to have trouble landing in the bottom 3 either way. And what’s the difference in odds of landing the #1 pick between being bottom 3 and 4th? Like 2% or something, right?
 

Crystallas

Three if by air
Staff member
But it’s not possible for him to develop beyond that? And I would argue he’s already at that level, he just doesn’t come off the bench to qualify for 6th man. If he did, he’d already be in line for it
The Bulls or any pro team, as dumb as the Bulls have been, aren't going to just bench someone to set them up for a 6MOTY award. LaVine is starting because #1, the management concept of selling and buying in, which means they made the move and have to prove to the fans he was worth trading Butler and getting fans to fall in line somehow. #2, the Bulls don't have the depth chart to put LaVine anywhere else. #3, because the Bulls are in a rebuild with low risk, low pressure, it doesn't hurt them to throw minutes and match-ups at players they want to develop. Lastly #4, along with the trade, they need to justify the massive contract.

Now he should develop further. Never said he couldn't. Don't fail in comprehension here and confuse two concepts. One concept is that he wont develop more at all, and the other is that he wont develop enough. It's not just Zach's work and development that goes into this, but every other player in the league that he is competing with, along with the attrition of young players in the same argument still in school or overseas that share the very same data points. I use the word attrition, because Zach's skills are built around him being young and agile, so his strengths are competing with the younger half of elite basketball players, not the older...as HE gets older. So that is a ship sailing away slowly as he too goes from early 20's to late 20's. His athleticism and work ethic to stay elite at his level is going to naturally conflict with his effort to round out his game. How do we know that is likely the case? Every example historically of an undersized 2 guard in NBA history that failed to round out their game enough in the first 5 seasons of their career in a similar position has reached the same fate as a *starter* but flourished as a 6th man if and when those players were on teams built for that type of 6th man, and if and when those players could wrap their brain around the concept of not starting and seeing the value of allowing a good coach to put them in their best role for TEAM success, and not just individual success(yay mom, look at stats, whoopdy doo).
 

knoxville7

Well-known member
The Bulls or any pro team, as dumb as the Bulls have been, aren't going to just bench someone to set them up for a 6MOTY award. LaVine is starting because #1, the management concept of selling and buying in, which means they made the move and have to prove to the fans he was worth trading Butler and getting fans to fall in line somehow. #2, the Bulls don't have the depth chart to put LaVine anywhere else. #3, because the Bulls are in a rebuild with low risk, low pressure, it doesn't hurt them to throw minutes and match-ups at players they want to develop. Lastly #4, along with the trade, they need to justify the massive contract.


Now he should develop further. Never said he couldn't. Don't fail in comprehension here and confuse two concepts. One concept is that he wont develop more at all, and the other is that he wont develop enough. It's not just Zach's work and development that goes into this, but every other player in the league that he is competing with, along with the attrition of young players in the same argument still in school or overseas that share the very same data points. I use the word attrition, because Zach's skills are built around him being young and agile, so his strengths are competing with the younger half of elite basketball players, not the older...as HE gets older. So that is a ship sailing away slowly as he too goes from early 20's to late 20's. His athleticism and work ethic to stay elite at his level is going to naturally conflict with his effort to round out his game. How do we know that is likely the case? Every example historically of an undersized 2 guard in NBA history that failed to round out their game enough in the first 5 seasons of their career in a similar position has reached the same fate as a *starter* but flourished as a 6th man if and when those players were on teams built for that type of 6th man, and if and when those players could wrap their brain around the concept of not starting and seeing the value of allowing a good coach to put them in their best role for TEAM success, and not just individual success(yay mom, look at stats, whoopdy doo).
I don’t lack any comprehension, simply asked you to clarify your stance which you have now done. There’s a lot of people who seem to think he can’t develop anymore beyond where he is right now, as evidence by the guy that responded “no” when I asked that very question. I’m also aware of why he starts for the bulls, my point was if he played on a better team and was the 6th man, he would already be in the running for the award...thus, making him already at that level of development

Of course his game is built of his youth and athleticism right now, but as long as he keeps developing his game...he can beat the curve on when he starts to lose a step over time. People used to critique Lebrun, wade, even Jordan with the same thing. Yeah, he’s great...but when he ages how will he stay great? Now don’t get it twisted and act like I’m comparing Zach to any of those guys level. Just pointing out guys can find ways to adapt as they age...if none ever did, then the league would be made up of all 20 somethings
 

RiDLer80

First time, long time.
Bulls were going to have trouble landing in the bottom 3 either way. And what’s the difference in odds of landing the #1 pick between being bottom 3 and 4th? Like 2% or something, right?
Just looked it up. 3rd-4th worst is only 1.5 point difference. I knew the worst 3 had the same odds to get the first pick. I thought the gap between 3 and 4 was larger, though.

Nevermind.
 
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