Fangio on Bears roster

Rory Sparrow · Feb 14, 2019

remydat said:
Still had nothing to do with the point about fan expectations and rebuilding. Sorry.

Wrong. I think the vast majority of the people, not just the "smart fans", realized that the Bears defense needed 'rebuilding' as opposed to a 'quick fix' when Fangio took over....as expressed in my posting.

remydat said:
Nothing Baba said was idiotic. It has already been pointed out to you that despite parity it is not a given that teams get good after 4 years drafting in the top 10. When it was pointed out the divisions don't show this to be true, your argument morphed into, "But those guys have HoF QBs" which is laughable.

Baba didn't post anything about divisions allegedly not showing this to be true, that was someone else. Fail.

And my point about the HOF QBs isn't "laughable", it's fact...with the irony being that two of the five teams pointed out as being dominating (Steelers, Packers) missed the postseason this year. The other teams listed as being dominant were the Saints, Patriots (low hanging fruit) and Colts. Here was my response...

Patriots = Brady
Colts = Manning
Steelers = Roethlisberger
Packers = Rodgers

I agree that if you focus on teams with the HOF QBs, then you'll find evidence that they are usually good. Doesn't really explain the recent histories of the Giants, Seahawks, Panthers, Broncos, Niners, Falcons, etc. Packers appear to be at the end of the line, done in by drafts that haven't restocked their roster. I like the reference to the Ravens...after winning the Super Bowl in 2012, they've made the postseason twice in the past 6 years (including this year).

It's like the CCS mantra with you, but I honestly don't know what you are "arguing". Are you arguing that I was mean to BaBaBlacksheep when I dealt with his snarky comments? Are you arguing that the NFL isn't designed to be a parity league? Are you arguing that drafting higher in each round is not advantageous?

didshereallysaythat · Feb 14, 2019

Rory Sparrow said:
Wrong. I think the vast majority of the people, not just the "smart fans", realized that the Bears defense needed 'rebuilding' as opposed to a 'quick fix' when Fangio took over....as expressed in my posting.

Baba didn't post anything about divisions allegedly not showing this to be true, that was someone else. Fail.

And my point about the HOF QBs isn't "laughable", it's fact...with the irony being that two of the five teams pointed out as being dominating (Steelers, Packers) missed the postseason this year. The other teams listed as being dominant were the Saints, Patriots (low hanging fruit) and Colts. Here was my response...

Patriots = Brady
Colts = Manning
Steelers = Roethlisberger
Packers = Rodgers

I agree that if you focus on teams with the HOF QBs, then you'll find evidence that they are usually good. Doesn't really explain the recent histories of the Giants, Seahawks, Panthers, Broncos, Niners, Falcons, etc. Packers appear to be at the end of the line, done in by drafts that haven't restocked their roster. I like the reference to the Ravens...after winning the Super Bowl in 2012, they've made the postseason twice in the past 6 years (including this year).

It's like the CCS mantra with you, but I honestly don't know what you are "arguing". Are you arguing that I was mean to BaBaBlacksheep when I dealt with his snarky comments? Are you arguing that the NFL isn't designed to be a parity league? Are you arguing that drafting higher in each round is not advantageous?

And even teams with HOF QBs go through down periods as well as the roster turns over. Saints and Steelers had some bad years in the past. Packers this year. The only real exception where a team has been elite every year across the board was the Patriots. In every sport, you will eventually find that outlier every few decades.

remydat · Feb 14, 2019

Rory Sparrow said:
Wrong. I think the vast majority of the people, not just the "smart fans", realized that the Bears defense needed 'rebuilding' as opposed to a 'quick fix' when Fangio took over....as expressed in my posting.

Baba didn't post anything about divisions allegedly not showing this to be true, that was someone else. Fail.

And my point about the HOF QBs isn't "laughable", it's fact...with the irony being that two of the five teams pointed out as being dominating (Steelers, Packers) missed the postseason this year. The other teams listed as being dominant were the Saints, Patriots (low hanging fruit) and Colts. Here was my response...

Patriots = Brady
Colts = Manning
Steelers = Roethlisberger
Packers = Rodgers

I agree that if you focus on teams with the HOF QBs, then you'll find evidence that they are usually good. Doesn't really explain the recent histories of the Giants, Seahawks, Panthers, Broncos, Niners, Falcons, etc. Packers appear to be at the end of the line, done in by drafts that haven't restocked their roster. I like the reference to the Ravens...after winning the Super Bowl in 2012, they've made the postseason twice in the past 6 years (including this year).

It's like the CCS mantra with you, but I honestly don't know what you are "arguing". Are you arguing that I was mean to BaBaBlacksheep when I dealt with his snarky comments? Are you arguing that the NFL isn't designed to be a parity league? Are you arguing that drafting higher in each round is not advantageous?

Baba already noted in post 66 that others had already pointed it out to you and that the Pats were just low hanging fruit.

The NFL is designed for parity. Doesn't change the reality of what actually happens in the NFL. You have not provided no objective data to support your claim. Just said something for which there is anecdotal evidence for and against rendering your point unprovable at this point. Do you have data of how often teams that draft in the top 10 of the NFL for a period of time go on to make the playoffs?

Your point about HoF QBs is laughable because that was not your original argument. You only moved the goalposts when it was pointed out that your claim about parity does not necessarily line up with reality. The NFL may intend something but given teams will in fact draft HoF QBs from time to time, what they intend may not actually come to fruition.

didshereallysaythat · Feb 14, 2019

Worst Patriots records with Brady:

9-7 in 2002 (only time they missed the playoffs)
10-6 in 2009 (1st round exit)

Literally every other year, they were arguably one of the best 5 teams with shot at the SB and most of those years the very best team. Simply amazing.

remydat · Feb 14, 2019

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/gallery/every-nfl-teams-10-year-record-ranked-32-1-010417

Of the teams at the top of this list, I don't recall any of them drafting top 10, 4 years in a row. One would think that if drafting in the top 10 for a period of time allowed teams to get good that you would see a few at the top of this list.

Rather you have a mix of teams with HoF QBs or just really good coaches/GMS irrespective of where they draft.

Rory Sparrow · Feb 14, 2019

remydat said:
Baba already noted in post 66 that others had already pointed it out to you and that the Pats were just low hanging fruit.

What does that mean?

remydat · Feb 14, 2019

Rory Sparrow said:
What does that mean?

That they were the most obvious anecdotal example to point out the flaw in your logic. Now do you have any data to support your claim? I have posted the best records of the last 10 years. Feel free to use that or do your own research to support your claim.

Rory Sparrow · Feb 14, 2019

remydat said:
That they were the most obvious anecdotal example to point out the flaw in your logic. Now do you have any data to support your claim? I have posted the best records of the last 10 years. Feel free to use that or do your own research to support your claim.

Round and round...already addressed this AND included it in my recap to you...

Possibly the dumbest post in CCS history. We just had multiple weeks of the media gushing over the uniqueness of Belichick's accomplishments...staying competitive at a high level over a long period of time in the NFL when the structure of the NFL is designed to prevent such a thing from happening. Did you not watch the Super Bowl or follow the NFL over the last 17 years?

As for the rest of your posting...so you ARE arguing against the fact that the NFL is designed for parity? When you ask me for "data" to support my "claim", can I simply provide evidence that NFL teams draft in inverse order of their previous year's record?

For already-cited (multiple times) evidence, refer to Post #57! Post #67! For a summation of context, Post #58!

For a second time, It's like the CCS mantra with you, but I honestly don't know what you are "arguing". Are you arguing that I was mean to BaBaBlacksheep when I dealt with his snarky comments? Are you arguing that the NFL isn't designed to be a parity league? Are you arguing that drafting higher in each round is not advantageous?

Sculpt · Feb 14, 2019

playthrough2001 said:
Smart fans have been pointing that out since the beginning of the Pace era. Dumb fans expected a quick fix.

Rory Sparrow said:
Wrong. I think the vast majority of the people, not just the "smart fans", realized that the Bears defense needed 'rebuilding' as opposed to a 'quick fix' when Fangio took over.

I admit I wasn't really a 'smart fan' about the Bears defensive talent on the 2013 and 2014 defense... I thought it was DC Mel Tucker. = p

Didn't have much to go on... just that Marinelli had done very well the year before, and Fangio did very well the year after... hmm...

But still, I'm not saying the Bears '13-'14 defensive roster was particularly good, I'm just saying the biggest factor by far was Tucker.

A different GM, HC and DC can be a "quick fix", evidently, because even a DC can lead in changing the roster significantly in one year (i.e. Pace listening to Fangio), combined with a GM staff making good Def draft picks, and an HC that gets good effort out of the team.

Rory Sparrow · Feb 14, 2019

Sculpt said:
I admit I wasn't really a 'smart fan' about the Bears defensive talent on the 2013 and 2014 defense... I thought it was DC Mel Tucker. = p

Didn't have much to go on... just that Marinelli had done very well the year before, and Fangio did very well the year after... hmm...

But still, I'm not saying the Bears '13-'14 defensive roster was particularly good, I'm just saying the biggest factor by far was Tucker.

A different GM, HC and DC can be a "quick fix", evidently, because even a DC can lead in changing the roster significantly in one year (i.e. Fangio), combined with a GM staff making good Def draft picks, and an HC that gets good effort out of the team.

I guess in some sense it was a "quick fix", in that Fox/Fangio had the Bears competitive in most of their games that first year, and the defense improved from 31st to 20th.

remydat · Feb 14, 2019

Rory Sparrow said:
Round and round...already addressed this AND included it in my recap to you...

Possibly the dumbest post in CCS history. We just had multiple weeks of the media gushing over the uniqueness of Belichick's accomplishments...staying competitive at a high level over a long period of time in the NFL when the structure of the NFL is designed to prevent such a thing from happening. Did you not watch the Super Bowl or follow the NFL over the last 17 years?

As for the rest of your posting...so you ARE arguing against the fact that the NFL is designed for parity? When you ask me for "data" to support my "claim", can I simply provide evidence that NFL teams draft in inverse order of their previous year's record?

For already-cited (multiple times) evidence, refer to Post #57! Post #67! For a summation of context, Post #58!

For a second time, It's like the CCS mantra with you, but I honestly don't know what you are "arguing". Are you arguing that I was mean to BaBaBlacksheep when I dealt with his snarky comments? Are you arguing that the NFL isn't designed to be a parity league? Are you arguing that drafting higher in each round is not advantageous?

For the 3rd time, do you have any actual objective data to support your claim as again there is anecdotal evidence for and against?

Yes we are aware that teams draft in inverse order. You have provided zero evidence that teams drafting top 10 four years in a row have historically made it to the playoffs any more than other teams.

Sculpt · Feb 14, 2019

Rory Sparrow said:
I guess in some sense it was a "quick fix", in that Fox/Fangio had the Bears competitive in most of their games that first year, and the defense improved from 31st to 20th.

Thankfully; and 14th in Total Yards.

Draft order is a significant factor in improving a team, so is GM/staff actually making good picks and good FA choices, and having good coaches and great QBs through a long stretch.

“What they were doing was putting Band-Aids on every little problem, hoping they would be a good team the next year. By the time we got there, they sucked. They were old, no young talent, no nothing. I’ve coached on two expansions teams in Carolina and with the Texans, and our roster on defense when I was hired was worse than those expansion team defenses.”

I'm not sure I entirely buy Fangio's assessment of the 'band-aids on every little problem', but sure, Shea was a sucky 'patch'. There were certainly a lot of vets falling off, but that happens in due course. Suffice is to say Emery's picks and Tucker sucked, Fangio and Pace did a good job.

jooo83 · Feb 14, 2019

halftime said:
I knew a lot of fans who thought Emery was a good GM and were surprised when he got fired. Kinda like Pace, the defense was always, "He's cleaning up Lovie & Angelo's mess." Some fans will not admit a guy isn't getting it done until they're off the team.

Maybe initially. But that sentiment didn't last long. I am skeptical that anyone was surprised when the Bears cleaned house and fired Emery/Trestman.

Fangio on Bears roster

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