The R.Pace good or bad at his job question still going.

iueyedoc · Mar 20, 2019

iueyedoc said:
Unearthing midround gold has been Pace's greatest strength and other teams "signing away our guys" will just give him more comp pick dynamite and china men to mine that gold.

When I typed the above response I threw in a clearly racist reference and was curious to see if anyone would call out me out. Sorta of my own personal CCS social experiment. Not surprisingly... crickets. Good to see the SJW's on CCS limit their outrage to certain races.

Penny Traitor · Mar 20, 2019

remydat said:
You mean Nagy the coach Pace hired? The GM is responsible for the whole team.

Got to agree with this point.

I don't blame Marc Trestman for being completely unprepared to take over as HC of an NFL team. I blame the man that knew that, but hired him anyhow.

remydat · Mar 20, 2019

iueyedoc said:
When I typed the above response I threw in a clearly racist reference and was curious to see if anyone would call out me out. Sorta of my own personal CCS social experiment. Not surprisingly... crickets. Good to see the SJW's on CCS limit their outrage to certain races.

So wait, you said something racist and now chastising people for your racist comment? Good one.

I stopped reading your comment after the first part about Unearthing mid round gold as already knew where your comment was heading. But yeah, what you said was racist. Glad we agree.

dabears70 · Mar 20, 2019

remydat said:

You mean Nagy the coach Pace hired? The GM is responsible for the whole team. Until this team is a consistent winner the job is not done.

Click to expand...

remydat said:
I agree that is one of his strengths thus far but he still needs to be able to exhibit he can continue to do that over the coming years.

If the team is good enough to overcome the quarterback then yeah. That was why Mack was so key. That D should allow us to remain competitive even if Trubs ends up floundering so long as he isn't absolutely atrocious and we pull the trigger on a competent replacement quickly. Of course, if he continues to develop then we have a chance for sustained success over a longer period of time.

Don't know how you and some others don't understand it but Pace can't control what happens on the field. He makes the hires and free agent signings and draft picks so he puts everything together and then it's up to the coaches and players to produce. I know you're gonna say "but this is Pace's team so he's responsible for what they do on the field" but it is and always has been a silly argument. Pace did his part and hired what looks to be a great hire in M.Nagy and what we all think is gonna be a solid signing in Pagano to replace Fangio and got Nagy some solid assistants that all need to do their part of their jobs. Pace will be doing his GM duties while Nagy and his assistants run the practices and Pace will be sitting in his GM booth during games. I'm not saying Pace is completely out of what the team does but mostly his part is done after putting the team together. All he'll need to do is keep doing whatever a GM has to do while the season is going and that's not calling plays or being on the field playing.

Outlaw Josey Cutler · Mar 20, 2019

dabears70 said:
Don't know how you and some others don't understand it but Pace can't control what happens on the field. He makes the hires and free agent signings and draft picks so he puts everything together and then it's up to the coaches and players to produce. I know you're gonna say "but this is Pace's team so he's responsible for what they do on the field" but it is and always has been a silly argument. Pace did his part and hired what looks to be a great hire in M.Nagy and what we all think is gonna be a solid signing in Pagano to replace Fangio and got Nagy some solid assistants that all need to do their part of their jobs. Pace will be doing his GM duties while Nagy and his assistants run the practices and Pace will be sitting in his GM booth during games. I'm not saying Pace is completely out of what the team does but mostly his part is done after putting the team together. All he'll need to do is keep doing whatever a GM has to do while the season is going and that's not calling plays or being on the field playing.

So you don't judge him based on W-L? Because that is on coaches and players? What metric do you USE to judge whether he has in fact made the correct "hires and free agent signings and draft picks"?

Is it a self-created spreadsheet of estimated values for the coaches, FA, and draft picks?

You make zero sense here. Pace does the hiring of the head coach (who then hires the assistants not Pace by the way) and FAs and draft picks and they - along with the GM - are judged by WINS and LOSSES.

You cannot get around that fact, no matter how much you love him and his moves.

iueyedoc · Mar 20, 2019

remydat said:
So wait, you said something racist and now chastising people for your racist comment? Good one.

I stopped reading your comment after the first part about Unearthing mid round gold as already knew where your comment was heading. But yeah, what you said was racist. Glad we agree.

You stopped reading a single sentence response half way through yet quoted it and responded to it. That is Trump's "Tim Apple, I whispered his last name but media edited it out" level believable. How unnecessarily defensive of you.

BearDen · Mar 20, 2019

Outlaw Josey Cutler said:
So you don't judge him based on W-L? Because that is on coaches and players? What metric do you USE to judge whether he has in fact made the correct "hires and free agent signings and draft picks"?

Is it a self-created spreadsheet of estimated values for the coaches, FA, and draft picks?

You make zero sense here. Pace does the hiring of the head coach (who then hires the assistants not Pace by the way) and FAs and draft picks and they - along with the GM - are judged by WINS and LOSSES.

You cannot get around that fact, no matter how much you love him and his moves.

Pace can do no wrong even when he does something wrong.

xer0h0ur · Mar 20, 2019

remydat said:
You mean Nagy the coach Pace hired? The GM is responsible for the whole team. Until this team is a consistent winner the job is not done.

I don't know why you are getting hung up on the fact that Pace doesn't control the destiny of the team past its head coach and the talent he gives that coach. The question being posed is you've already got a great coach that is clearly doing his job well and a roster full of talent that is being coached up well. If the QB turns out to be a whiff...does the body of work overall let you get past the fact he whiffed on the quarterback or not. Simple as that. Do you give Pace a 2nd crack at him and Nagy picking another quarterback?

xer0h0ur · Mar 20, 2019

Outlaw Josey Cutler said:
So you don't judge him based on W-L? Because that is on coaches and players? What metric do you USE to judge whether he has in fact made the correct "hires and free agent signings and draft picks"?

Is it a self-created spreadsheet of estimated values for the coaches, FA, and draft picks?

You make zero sense here. Pace does the hiring of the head coach (who then hires the assistants not Pace by the way) and FAs and draft picks and they - along with the GM - are judged by WINS and LOSSES.

You cannot get around that fact, no matter how much you love him and his moves.

I'm pretty sure any reasonable fan understands that it was asinine to judge Pace by win loss record during the entire rebuild...its like pointing to a student driver and saying see...they can't race. Pretty fucking Special person. If you want to start judging him by win loss record then it began last season when the rebuild was finished...

remydat · Mar 20, 2019

dabears70 said:
Don't know how you and some others don't understand it but Pace can't control what happens on the field. He makes the hires and free agent signings and draft picks so he puts everything together and then it's up to the coaches and players to produce. I know you're gonna say "but this is Pace's team so he's responsible for what they do on the field" but it is and always has been a silly argument. Pace did his part and hired what looks to be a great hire in M.Nagy and what we all think is gonna be a solid signing in Pagano to replace Fangio and got Nagy some solid assistants that all need to do their part of their jobs. Pace will be doing his GM duties while Nagy and his assistants run the practices and Pace will be sitting in his GM booth during games. I'm not saying Pace is completely out of what the team does but mostly his part is done after putting the team together. All he'll need to do is keep doing whatever a GM has to do while the season is going and that's not calling plays or being on the field playing.

If the coaches and players fail then that is a reflection of the GM who hired them. I am not sure what you don't understand about this. If I hire people to do a job and they fail then I will have to answer for those failures because I am the one that hired them. Just as if they succeed, I will get credit for their success.

His part is not done. If Trubs, ARob, Gabs, etc. falter then that is a reflection of his decision to sign them. If players start leaving and he doesn't do a good job replacing them then that is a reflection on him. A GM's job is never done. It is a continual process of improving and maintaining the team.

remydat · Mar 20, 2019

iueyedoc said:
You stopped reading a single sentence response half way through yet quoted it and responded to it. That is Trump's "Tim Apple, I whispered his last name but media edited it out" level believable. How unnecessarily defensive of you.

I already understood your point after reading half of it so didn't need to read further. I had no expectation of you being a racist in response to a question about Ryan Pace so really was not looking out for racist statements. Your alleged experiment would work better in B&I where people probably read stuff more diligently.

Penny Traitor · Mar 20, 2019

dabears70 said:
Don't know how you and some others don't understand it but Pace can't control what happens on the field. He makes the hires and free agent signings and draft picks so he puts everything together and then it's up to the coaches and players to produce. I know you're gonna say "but this is Pace's team so he's responsible for what they do on the field" but it is and always has been a silly argument.

Seriously?

He is responsible for every last person being on that field in the first place. That makes any other point your attempting to make completely moot.

xer0h0ur said:
If the QB turns out to be a whiff...does the body of work overall let you get past the fact he whiffed on the quarterback or not?

If Pace misses on the QB position when he could have literally drafted any QB he wanted...I just don't know how you come back from that.

Does that make him the Lovie Smith of GMs? Can just never get it right on offense.

Outlaw Josey Cutler · Mar 20, 2019

xer0h0ur said:
I don't know why you are getting hung up on the fact that Pace doesn't control the destiny of the team past its head coach and the talent he gives that coach

Click to expand...

.

Because some people use the fact he "doesn't control destiny" as to absolve him of any wrongdoing even when picking players (ie it wasn't Pace's fault Trubisky struggled rookie year due to Fox and it wasn't Pace's fault he had Fox because he was tied and gagged when the upper levels of ownership decided on Fox).

If that's not you, cool. Carry on.

The question being posed is you've already got a great coach that is clearly doing his job well and a roster full of talent that is being coached up well.

Click to expand...

Agreed. Because W-L say so. That also is not necessarily for YOU but others here.

If the QB turns out to be a whiff...does the body of work overall let you get past the fact he whiffed on the quarterback or not. Simple as that. Do you give Pace a 2nd crack at him and Nagy picking another quarterback?

Click to expand...

An interesting question. I tend to say I don't know. It depends on the situation. Assuming the D stays top notch, there is that feather in Pace's cap to be accounted for sure.

But if the QB struggles to get to top-level quality I think both Pace and Nagy would have to seriously be looked at. But only in terms of HOW Trubisky would be failing.

Is he still missing deep so much that an entire zone of the field for the offense in Nagy's system cannot possibly be implemented and exploited?

Or is Mitch missing short to medium reads? Or is the defense giving up underneath stuff that Mitch is hitting and the YAC guys cannot exploit missed tackles leaving Mitch's yardage and TD stats lower than needed?

My guess is there will be an accounting of Mitch vs. Nagy where Mitch's future struggles (assuming he never rises to elite level) will be weighed against what Nagy was doing to help him and what is usually needed to help top QBs achieve success.

Either way won't reflect well on Pace on either side of where that balance will hang.

TL;DR - I don't know but no one will be able to defend Pace for the pick and questioning his ability to pick a QB will not be unreasonable.

remydat · Mar 20, 2019

xer0h0ur said:
I don't know why you are getting hung up on the fact that Pace doesn't control the destiny of the team past its head coach and the talent he gives that coach. The question being posed is you've already got a great coach that is clearly doing his job well and a roster full of talent that is being coached up well. If the QB turns out to be a whiff...does the body of work overall let you get past the fact he whiffed on the quarterback or not. Simple as that. Do you give Pace a 2nd crack at him and Nagy picking another quarterback?

Think you confusing two questions. Your question that you posed separate about getting a 2nd crack at a QB was answered in post 320 at the bottom. See below.

remydat said:
If the team is good enough to overcome the quarterback then yeah. That was why Mack was so key. That D should allow us to remain competitive even if Trubs ends up floundering so long as he isn't absolutely atrocious and we pull the trigger on a competent replacement quickly. Of course, if he continues to develop then we have a chance for sustained success over a longer period of time.

As to the question of whether Pace is good or bad, I am saying one season is not enough to judge. Yes it looks like the team has talent and yes it looks like Nagy is a good coach but that needs to be proven out over multiple seasons and playoff appearances IMO. We already for example saw a young Raiders team that looked poised to be a consistent winner implode so it remains to be seen if 2018 is now the norm or an outlier. So all I am saying is we need more evidence before we conclude definitively on that front.

Outlaw Josey Cutler · Mar 20, 2019

xer0h0ur said:
I'm pretty sure any reasonable fan understands that it was asinine to judge Pace by win loss record during the entire rebuild...its like pointing to a student driver and saying see...they can't race. Pretty fucking Special person. If you want to start judging him by win loss record then it began last season when the rebuild was finished...

If YOU say so.

But you must agree W-L is the largest factor and MUST be accounted for without excuse from here on, right? If yes to that, then we are on the same page.

xer0h0ur · Mar 20, 2019

Outlaw Josey Cutler said:
If YOU say so.

But you must agree W-L is the largest factor and MUST be accounted for without excuse from here on, right? If yes to that, then we are on the same page.

I'm not making any excuses for Pace. I am just being realistic and yes of course the rebuild has been over since the last off-season. This team whether good enough or not is what it is and there is no more room for any major changes. So we are going to forge ahead with what we have and figure out just how good or bad they are. I get that people here are tired of seeing DB70's ass kissing of Pace but make no mistake...I'm not on that boat. I spent the first couple of years of Pace's tenure pissed the fuck off at what he was doing until it was brutally apparent he was tearing the whole thing apart to build it back up. Then I eased up on criticism till there was a clearer picture of what he was building. Along the way he has proven to have earned my respect and confidence in his drafting but we all know his handling of free agency isn't all sunshine and rainbows. The only thing he did improve upon was how he handled his own free agents but that is only half the battle of free agency.

xer0h0ur · Mar 20, 2019

remydat said:
Think you confusing two questions. Your question that you posed separate about getting a 2nd crack at a QB was answered in post 320 at the bottom. See below.

As to the question of whether Pace is good or bad, I am saying one season is not enough to judge. Yes it looks like the team has talent and yes it looks like Nagy is a good coach but that needs to be proven out over multiple seasons and playoff appearances IMO. We already for example saw a young Raiders team that looked poised to be a consistent winner implode so it remains to be seen if 2018 is now the norm or an outlier. So all I am saying is we need more evidence before we conclude definitively on that front.

I gave an extremely specific question and as per usual you dodged the shit out of it. Well done. Status quo it is then.

remydat · Mar 20, 2019

xer0h0ur said:
I gave an extremely specific question and as per usual you dodged the shit out of it. Well done. Status quo it is then.

First you quoted the part of my post that was not the answer to your question. My comment about Pace hiring Nagy was a response to your initial post to me not your post about if Pace gets another crack.

Second, I already answered your question in post 320. For the third time here is my response.

remydat said:
If the team is good enough to overcome the quarterback then yeah. That was why Mack was so key. That D should allow us to remain competitive even if Trubs ends up floundering so long as he isn't absolutely atrocious and we pull the trigger on a competent replacement quickly. Of course, if he continues to develop then we have a chance for sustained success over a longer period of time.

How is this a dodge? You asked if Pace gets a 2nd crack and I responded by saying if the team is good enough to overcome it then yeah. What don't you understand about the above? Here this time, I even bolded the most relevant parts.

xer0h0ur · Mar 20, 2019

remydat said:
First you quoted the part of my post that was not the answer to your question. My comment about Pace hiring Nagy was a response to your initial post to me not your post about if Pace gets another crack.

Second, I already answered you question in post 320. For the third time here is my response.

How is this a dodge? You asked if Pace gets a 2nd crack and I responded by saying if the team is good enough to overcome it then yeah. What don't you understand about the above? Here this time, I even bolded the most relevant parts.

Well Remy, knowing you. Its hard to nail down a concise answer because you like to over complicate it every fucking time. I wasn't asking for qualifiers. It was pretty much posed as a yes or no question. You could have said yes or no and gone on to explain your reasoning for it but that isn't how you work.

iueyedoc · Mar 20, 2019

remydat said:
I already understood your point after reading half of it so didn't need to read further. I had no expectation of you being a racist in response to a question about Ryan Pace so really was not looking out for racist statements. Your alleged experiment would work better in B&I where people probably read stuff more diligently.

I am curious, which word did you stop at, "strength", "pick", the second "and?" Trying to figure out how many words in a 30 word sentence would cause a person to loose interest in finishing the sentence. I would like to avoid being long winded in the future. With you assistance I can become more concise and to the point.
I linked the original sentence so you can finish it up in case you need to for clarity.
Hope you were able to make it this far.

iueyedoc said:
Unearthing midround gold has been Pace's greatest strength and other teams "signing away our guys" will just give him more comp pick dynamite and china men to mine that gold.

The R.Pace good or bad at his job question still going.

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