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Ahh. I didn't remember that. I do think it was maybe a year or two too soon. The fact that he wanted a rotating DH makes me question him more. It obviously didn't work out.
Ahh. I didn't remember that. I do think it was maybe a year or two too soon. The fact that he wanted a rotating DH makes me question him more. It obviously didn't work out.
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My favorite teams
I could see why Ozzie would not not want Konerko and Thome on the bases at the same time. :tiptoe:
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Hahahaha. True. Dunn is worse than Thome though...
HawkyTalky
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The Dunn signing was a bold move and I'll give KW credit for that. However, what I will blame KW for is signing the wrong player for the DH position.
Being a DH takes a different type of player. Being a DH once took a HOF-caliber player in Frank Thomas and made his numbers drop significantly.
Dunn isn't in the same class as Frank Thomas. Thats probably why when he became a DH his numbers dropped so much further than Thomas' did at the time.
KW isn't to blame for signing Dunn per se. He IS to blame for signing a player for a position he wasn't suited for (Dunn has even said this himself in the past.) and in a league he wasn't familiar with. Combine those two and you have the perfect storm for Dunn's decline.
The only way I see the Sox and Dunn climbing out of this hole is if we let him play 1B regularly and DH Paulie or if we let Dunn play RF (which I want no part of.)
We're in the same situation we were in in the late 90's when we tried to make Thomas the DH so Paulie could play 1B but, Thomas wasn't very good as a DH (or in the field at 1B) so we had to find ways to juggle both of them.
Flash forward to today and substitute Dunn for Thomas and it's as Yogi Berra once said "Deja Vu all over again."
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Skills
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That wasn't my point. I never said Alex wasn't overpaid but everyone knew he was overpaid anyway. Kenny brought him to the south side to produce and if he had to spend a little more money then so be it.
And 15 wins from Peavy? Yeah the proof's in the pudding right there. 15 from Jake at this point is a pipe dream.
I'm not making excuses for anyone. It's no secret that Alex had a decent season last season but can't produce this season. I want him gone just as much as you do. As far as Jake goes I didn't have ridiculously high exceptions for him so there's no excuse here.
I'm not defending the players here, we're talking about KW.
You know you'd be lying if you said you didn't want Adam to come here. Kenny brought him here, it's not his fault that he can't hit the water falling out of a boat this season.
Daniel Hudson isn't doing much for Arizona. 12 wins with an almost 4 ERA would NOT work on this team. Matter of fact he wouldn't have 12 wins here with that ERA.
Gio Gonzalez is a decent pitcher out in Oakland but he'd be eaten alive in the Cell.
I'd take a healthy Jake over both of them right now. I know, I know, Jake hasn't been healthy here. But that doesn't make the move a bad one.
The only reason we even let JD go is because we had CQ ready to take his spot. Kenny would have re-signed him, trust me. Just because nobody wants to sign him doesn't mean Kenny wouldn't. Scott Podsednik?
Point being? We wouldn't even be in this position if it weren't for his bat after the All Star break. C'mon man...
And yet another person who thinks Viciedo will be a top run producer when he comes up here. People's expectations for him are far too high.
Were those teams already better than we were during the offseason & trade deadline?
Philly? Yes.
Frisco? Yes.
If they were better than us, which they were, wouldn't that mean they didn't have to gamble?
It makes complete sense. Kenny put the pieces together for the team to be competitive 4 out of the last 6 years. The players got older and he had to make more moves. You sound like you want to go into rebuild mode relying strictly on a farm system and being timid when it comes to pulling the trigger. Sounds to me like you want to see something like the Cubs :rofl:
They make a lot of sense and 6 seasons after a World Series isn't shortsighted.
What exactly is the bigger picture then?
And the teams you're talking about are already in a better position than we are, that's why they don't need to make as many moves. What's so hard to understand about that?
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Skills
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*facepalm* PRODUCTION. That's the point. Was he productive last season? Yes. Are you not reading?
Yes it is. He wasn't supposed to come here to be the ace. In fact he was supposed to be third behind Mark & John, possibly even behind Gavin. That's how I looked at it. Your 4th starter is not supposed to win 15 games. What do you think we are, the Braves in the 90s?
I'm not trying to change your opinion just proving there's another side to this coin. You're free to think whatever you want...
Please. You've got to be kidding me if you thought bringing a big left handed bat with power to this side of town when we NEEDED it was an "okay" move :smh:
...So you reneg on your last statement that he would be a good pitcher on the White Sox or what? Contradicting yourself isn't helping...
No not anybody, Gio would. What is it with you people pulling different players into this? Obviously Oakland has a pitcher's park. He wouldn't be able to pull off 134 hits & only 11 home runs in our ballpark. Be serious.
lol you're acting like Gio was ready to be an ace on this squad. Stop making him Cy Gonzalez...
Aren't you one of the people calling for the entire staff to be fired now all of a sudden Coop is a pitching God who can make any young pitcher incredible? lolwhat?
Actuality > Potentiality. You don't know how those pitchers would have panned out. They could've turned out just like Clayton Richard, which isn't good by the way.
27 HR & 81 RBI's is what you call DONE? You're a joke dude. Nobody else signed Scott Podsednik when the Rockies released him but Kenny and it was because of HIS bat that we went on those win streaks last season. I like how you keep ignoring this.
My position is weak? You already contradicted yourself once and then you bring that sorry ass "this is the internet" argument out. You can do better than that, at least for your sake I hope you can...
lol really? Viciedo > Quentin? I almost wanna quit after this. You've got to be kidding me...
You completely dodged the point. Nice one.
.500 with a couple series left against the division leaders next month and only 5 games out isn't "very negative-looking". Yet another person who counts their chickens before they hatch. All of you assume everything and never let anything happen. That's probably why you're so dismal now.
What did SF do over the past 3 seasons that is SO much better than our moves?
Philly signed Doc & Cliff, two pitchers that weren't coming here anyway.
This coming from someone who talked about how me calling out the fans was a "fail"
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*facepalm* PRODUCTION. That's the point. Was he productive last season? Yes. Are you not reading?
Are you reading as well? His year last year STILL wasn't worth the money he was paid. There is a reason 31 other teams passed on him.
Yes it is. He wasn't supposed to come here to be the ace. In fact he was supposed to be third behind Mark & John, possibly even behind Gavin. That's how I looked at it. Your 4th starter is not supposed to win 15 games. What do you think we are, the Braves in the 90s?
15 wins isn't really "ace" material. Maybe your expectations are poor because of how bad our offense is.
I'm not trying to change your opinion just proving there's another side to this coin. You're free to think whatever you want...
Please. You've got to be kidding me if you thought bringing a big left handed bat with power to this side of town when we NEEDED it was an "okay" move :smh:
Sure, it was needed but that doesn't mean I was excited about Dunn. He isn't a complete player, even besides this year. Not every Sox fan was jumping for joy when we got him.
...So you reneg on your last statement that he would be a good pitcher on the White Sox or what? Contradicting yourself isn't helping...
No, you didn't read my response correctly. I was pointing out how bad our offense is because of the moves KW has made. With how poor the offense is, perhaps 15 wins is insane.
No not anybody, Gio would. What is it with you people pulling different players into this? Obviously Oakland has a pitcher's park. He wouldn't be able to pull off 134 hits & only 11 home runs in our ballpark. Be serious.
lol you're acting like Gio was ready to be an ace on this squad. Stop making him Cy Gonzalez...
Once again, Gio + Hudson + the $$$ we would still have from Peavy's contract = a much better situation then we are in now.
Aren't you one of the people calling for the entire staff to be fired now all of a sudden Coop is a pitching God who can make any young pitcher incredible? lolwhat?
Once again, reading is a great thing. I said if people want to make Ozzie and Walker the scape goats, I would be okay with it. Personally, my ideal offseason would be KW and Walker being fired. I don't blame Ozzie for a lot of things because he is trying to a manage a team that isn't tailored to what he wants. Obviously, Cooper is a great pitching coach. Learn to read.
Actuality > Potentiality. You don't know how those pitchers would have panned out. They could've turned out just like Clayton Richard, which isn't good by the way.
Which is why I never bring up Richards. And I don't think that any "actuality" would have turned out worse then what Peavy has done for this ball club, on the field, off the field and financially.
27 HR & 81 RBI's is what you call DONE? You're a joke dude. Nobody else signed Scott Podsednik when the Rockies released him but Kenny and it was because of HIS bat that we went on those win streaks last season. I like how you keep ignoring this.
Yes, JD was and is DONE. Why isn't he playing ball anymore, if he is so good? My gawd, this is hilarious.
My position is weak? You already contradicted yourself once and then you bring that sorry ass "this is the internet" argument out. You can do better than that, at least for your sake I hope you can...
I haven't contradicted myself, you are just having trouble reading.
lol really? Viciedo > Quentin? I almost wanna quit after this. You've got to be kidding me...
Once again, I never said Viciedo was better then Quentin. And I could be wrong there, he might just be better but we won't know until the kid is given an opportunity to play.
You completely dodged the point. Nice one.
You have to make a point for it to be dodged.
.500 with a couple series left against the division leaders next month and only 5 games out isn't "very negative-looking". Yet another person who counts their chickens before they hatch. All of you assume everything and never let anything happen. That's probably why you're so dismal now.
Hahahaha. Okay, stay "all in" if you want. It doesn't mean that other people can't look at this roster and see that as completely underachieving.
What did SF do over the past 3 seasons that is SO much better than our moves?
Philly signed Doc & Cliff, two pitchers that weren't coming here anyway.
They sign and re-sign players that actually contribute to a team? They have very good minor league systems so they can compliment those signings with solid, young players? I know that's a foreign concept to most Sox fans because we haven't seen that in awhile, but that is how good baseball teams do business, not by gambling away everything and hoping they get lucky.
This coming from someone who talked about how me calling out the fans was a "fail"
The excuses for KW keep on rolling in!
Skills
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Forget it, you aren't even debating anymore you're just repeating yourself instead of replying.
No, they weren't high because I know better...
Anyone complaining about this move isn't gonna be satisfied with anything Kenny does and those people are what I like to call: lame.
We need something, Kenny goes & gets it, the dude doesn't perform how he's expected to so now it's all Kenny's fault. Can't tell you how much fail comes in that logic.
Players underperforming is NOT the GM's fault. That's the player's. Jesus it's like talking to a brick wall...
So this isn't about the player it's about the payroll. Took you long enough to get the real point.
And what if we did save all of that money to have two piss poor pitchers? You'd be complaining about how Kenny isn't spending. I dare you to say you wouldn't.
So how does this only come down to Coop when Ozzie is the one who doesn't know how to pull a pitcher when his time to get pulled comes up? Coop can't do anything about it if Ozzie leaves the pitchers in too long. That's what it comes down to.
Blah blah blah. Complain about Peavy all you want but I'm tired of hearing it. Go cry to someone who can find a fuck to give you...
lol Yet AGAIN you keep ducking the other point. How do you expect me to take you seriously if you don't actually reply to what I'm saying?
Yeah you did and if you knew how to say what you meant and mean what you say you wouldn't be back tracking and saying "well I actually meant this". Get it right the first time...
*sigh* Yet another contradiction...
I mean seriously dude. If you can't even remember what you're saying then you've got some serious issues you need to work out. Yeah lol I can't read at all. And it's quite obvious you're talking about CQ. He's hitting .255. He just got benched. He had injury problems and he can't hit a breaking ball.
Why am I even wasting my time with you...
*Yawns* Of course I didn't...
Who said they weren't?
I ask you a very direct question and you give me an indirect and generic answer. No specifics what so ever.
Fuck it...
This pathetic attempt at a debate from you is over.
Brush up your skills and come back to me when you're finished...
HawkyTalky
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@Skills--
You're obviously having a hard time with the concepts of "cause and effect" and "contradiction":
Contradiction-- con·tra·dic·tion noun \ˌkän-trə-ˈdik-shən\
Definition of CONTRADICTION
1: act or an instance of contradicting
2a : a proposition, statement, or phrase that asserts or implies both the truth and falsity of something b : a statement or phrase whose parts contradict each other <a round square is a contradiction in terms>
3a : logical incongruity b : a situation in which inherent factors, actions, or propositions are inconsistent or contrary to one another
Therefore, this statement by Gunzaan:
is NOT a contradiction.
Cause and Effect
Cause-- KW acquired players who were bad at baseball, mentally weak, didn't fit in the the positions he signed them for, didn't fit the philosophy of his manager, were often injured, and underachieved even before he signed them even though the evaluation of these factors including their mental makeup is in the realm of his job responsibilities.
He also handicapped team payroll as a result (payroll is also one of his responsibilities.) by trading away younger, cheaper prospects who were as good or better than the players he acquired. In theory, he can't go out an make the White Sox better because of these contracts that he either acquired in trades, waivers, or signings.
Effect-- Fans now look at KW like he is an incompetent boob because he didn't perform his job correctly and up to (even his own) standards for a successful GM. Which appears to be justified.
It doesn't get anymore logical and straight forward than that. Why is this so difficult for you to comprehend? It isn't difficult to grasp and because it's fairly black and white, it is neither "lame" nor "full of fail".
You're obviously having a hard time with the concepts of "cause and effect" and "contradiction":
Contradiction-- con·tra·dic·tion noun \ˌkän-trə-ˈdik-shən\
Definition of CONTRADICTION
1: act or an instance of contradicting
2a : a proposition, statement, or phrase that asserts or implies both the truth and falsity of something b : a statement or phrase whose parts contradict each other <a round square is a contradiction in terms>
3a : logical incongruity b : a situation in which inherent factors, actions, or propositions are inconsistent or contrary to one another
Therefore, this statement by Gunzaan:
Gunzaan said:
is NOT a contradiction.
Cause and Effect
Skills said:
Cause-- KW acquired players who were bad at baseball, mentally weak, didn't fit in the the positions he signed them for, didn't fit the philosophy of his manager, were often injured, and underachieved even before he signed them even though the evaluation of these factors including their mental makeup is in the realm of his job responsibilities.
He also handicapped team payroll as a result (payroll is also one of his responsibilities.) by trading away younger, cheaper prospects who were as good or better than the players he acquired. In theory, he can't go out an make the White Sox better because of these contracts that he either acquired in trades, waivers, or signings.
Effect-- Fans now look at KW like he is an incompetent boob because he didn't perform his job correctly and up to (even his own) standards for a successful GM. Which appears to be justified.
It doesn't get anymore logical and straight forward than that. Why is this so difficult for you to comprehend? It isn't difficult to grasp and because it's fairly black and white, it is neither "lame" nor "full of fail".
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Skills
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Thanks for the english lesson professor
It's not a hard concept to grasp but see you wasted your entire post talking about cause and effect when the two posts you quoted have NO relation to each other.
You posted a definition and somehow got lost when what happened is a clear example of 3a. Go back to my post and read it. He said Viciedo WOULD be better than Quentin, then he said that he wouldn't.
That right there is a little something called, oh I dunno, inconsistency.
Get your facts straight before you try to correct somebody :lmao:
It's not a hard concept to grasp but see you wasted your entire post talking about cause and effect when the two posts you quoted have NO relation to each other.
You posted a definition and somehow got lost when what happened is a clear example of 3a. Go back to my post and read it. He said Viciedo WOULD be better than Quentin, then he said that he wouldn't.
That right there is a little something called, oh I dunno, inconsistency.
Get your facts straight before you try to correct somebody :lmao:
hsvj60
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to answer the original post its time for him to mosey on down the road hopefully to one of our rivals!!!
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This thread has gone from one person's silly opinion that KW is awful and that firing him will solve everything into a fight about every single little move he has made. Neither one of you guys is ever going to convince the other on your point. Just agree to disagree. You're just making yourself mad.
HawkyTalky
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Silly? Solve everything?
First off, I don't appreciate my opinion being called silly. Second, I never said it would solve everything. What I did imply was that firing KW is one of things this team needs to do to stop sliding further and further. I NEVER said it was the "end all be all" that would make everything better.
It's just one thing this team needs to do to get back on track. KW needs to stop being our GM. If he wants to stay an executive and let Rick Hahn become our GM, then that's fine too.
Reading is fun!!
hsvj60
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and the winner is............ by split decision...........and new heavyweight bullshitter of the WORLD.............
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Well, I agree to some extent that he should probably be fired eventually. I just disagree with the order that you want to do things. In my opinion, the Sox have to take it slow. Rapid change isn't going to help the team.
I also agree that reading is fun. I like seeing other people's opinions, hence why I joined and like this message board. It was just getting frustrating seeing two people basically say the same thing over and over again.
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