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Holy fuck you're still rambling?
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Only until you guys stop responding or I reach bedtime.
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You do know he caught 44 balls right?
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Are people taking dumps on Andy Reid almost reflexively? He is an interesting comparison, long time guy who won a lot but overstayed his welcome.
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But that was caused by two parties. Not to give any less credence to the awe inspired by that particular thread, but if this thread were to play out as Malcore suggests it might trump the ridiculousness of Bearsbud's...
Mr. Jones
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Lovie should have done better in hiring a coordinator for the offense. Someone like Trestman, but I think Lovie would have never hired someone capable of moving into his HC position, hence all the old cast offs he recruited.
Mr. Jones
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Well I wouldn't say the offensive talent was drained...under Angelo and Lovie it wasn't that great to begin with. I'm willing to bet
had Emery taken over as GM a few years earlier, he would have tried to get Lovie the offensive players he needed, and helped recruit a guy to run an offense. This is assuming Lovie would have cooperated with Emery and gotten off his high horse. Lovie appeared to be stubborn and set in his ways, and that may be why no one seemed to want to come to Chicago.
Martz was not a good candidate for HC, he was another outdated castoff that the Bears under Lovie had to hire.
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Cadence, thinking about the new plays, Rookies trying to figure our what they're facing assignment wise for the 1st time vs D alignment, etc. Again, nothing tangible but common sense should rule.
We should be below average under the current circumstances. The league median # of false starts last year was 18. Average that out over 16 games and get back to me. Top ten teams averaged 14.5. If you're going to take the math approach, I guess you think we should average well under 8. 5 would make it likely not to have one in the1st 2 games. It's a silly concept with too small a sample size but if you want to got there, you're just digging a hole.
I'm done.
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I think the Bears inability to actually draft good players caused a lot of pre snap penalties. Less talented players and players who have focus/intelligence issues are more likely to be concerned that they don't have the ability to defend Jared Allen or Geno Atkins so they try to get off the line as quickly as possible in order to get any kind of advantage. Further crowd noise most definitely causes false starts.
I mean let's make this simple. Do people honestly think if Webb (14 penalities), Rachel (8 in 8 games), and Carimi (10 in 12 games) were still here that we would have no pre snap penalties? Sorry I think we are comparing apples to organges here. There is a reason those guys are not here.
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So prove it. As I said, compare rookie starting OL penalties and see if Long and Mills perform better or worse over the course of this year. Right now you are making a generic assumption that just because they are rookies it means they should struggle. It still doesn't prove the lack of penalties is not due to their own talent and intellgience (see below) but it would make for a better argument than just blindly saying they are rookies.
Long missed a lot of OTAs because his college class hadn't graduated yet then shows up to TC and within a couple of weeks is mauling people all over the fucking field. I didn't see much of a learning curve. I saw a guy who from the time he stepped on the field was ready for prime time and I thought that is what most people here thought as well.
So I am confused how everyone is singing his praises all other times but then for the purpose of this one discussion think that the lack of penalties on his part is due mostly to coaching and not to the fact that when that mofo steps on the field he fears no one and is one of the fastest OL in the league. When you have that much strength and that much natural explosion, you don't need to anticpate the snap count because you know you have the talent to get it done without seeking an artificial advantage.
ClydeLee
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One... Who said that abiut Kyle Long? You want people to prove something, do you have any quote of someone saying such a comment.
Its reasonable to expect inexperienced people will perform inexperienced... That's the case with Long and Mills, and not just NFL wise but from slim play/low tier gimmicky play.
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Sure, just conveniently ignore the fact Long is short on experience.
Bear Pride
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WTF are you talking about. Not only is Forte great at catching the ball out of the backfield, the swing pass to the RB is a staple of the WC offense, which is what the Bears are running now!
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Stats don't lie.
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No they are not all pre-snap. And fine you think they would but then there is no way to prove it nor have you or anyone else tried to provide stats to prove it. It should just be accepted on faith.
And by your logic because you think Trestman would have reduced their penalties then are you saying that Trestman is a better coach than Jim and John Harbaugh, and Pete Carrol after just two games since he apparently would have reduced the numbers below those teams?
Realistically we would have to drill down on the numbers to really analyze. Crowd noise is a major factor and SF has to play in Seattle for example which is the loudest stadium in the league. And who are the players that committed these penalties and when did they do it? SF is a much better run blocking team than pass blocking. If a lot of their penalties are from pass blocking then those players could certainly feel like on passing players they need to get a better jump.
So no I am not saying it makes the Bears better because I don't know the particular circumstances that gave rise to the penalities. As I explained to Malcore when you aggregate data (at a team level) instead of at an individual level and without looking at specific circumstances, you are prone to arrive at erroneous conclusions. So sorry Rory, try again.
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I already edited my post. I defintiely recall posters anointing Kyle Long as one of the most talented rookie lineman they have seen. If you don't recall posters making such statements then fine. Am I going to look for quotes from posters. No. But then I am not going to dispute the fact that I have not provided a quote if you honestly don't remember it. That is the difference. I don't expect people to except stuff as fact if I don't feel like providing proof. All I have asked is for people to prove their statements and instead of just saying they can't or won't they just keep repeating it.
ClydeLee
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Yet you are already shifting the post of your claims.
I actually bet if a poster here said, Long is the best rookie linemen they've ever seen... They were being completely honest and likely accurate. I wouldn't expect them to have been watching other teams rookies much. That's comparing Long to a very weak rookie linemen showing for more than a decade.
I'm not a fan if people not backing up comments, but less of a fan of making proclamations on what others say or believe that sound more like generalizations than reality.
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The problem here is overcoming inexperience is a combination of the player having innate talent and yes some measure of coaching but you guys seem to be thinking it is all coaching. I am saying there is no way to quantify how much of Long's lack of penalties is coaching and how much of it is him just being a talented guy.
If you want to believe it is mostly coaching then fine. I simply said that can't be proven and I lean towards it being mostly the players. We are really at an impasse until someone can provide some measure of evidence but some people will continue to discuss as if their opinion is 100% fact.
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What claim have I shifted? Whenever I make a post, I reread it and in this case you quoted the inital 2 paragraph post and I edited it and it is now 3 paragraphs and I removed what I thought was the hyperbole and added the extra paragraph to more fully explain my point. That was done before I even read your post.
So yes I am agreeing that the first part was hyperbole which is why I changed it. I am responded to a bunch of different people and do so rapidly and then revisit and revise if necessary. Care point, I just added this second paragraph to further clarify.
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