League of Denial - How the NFL hid the link to brain injuries.

remydat · Oct 2, 2013

Bearly said:
Perhaps the risk became greater once they started juicing or even the juice adding directly to issues. There's lots of gray areas here and the league shouldn't take all the heat even if also culpable.

Everybody knows that if you get hit in the head enough, there will be issues. Not hard to grasp unless you're preconcussed. The idea that players didn't know if they wanted to know is sticking your head in the sand stuff. Guys died every year playing football in college early on. It's a dangerous sport and everybody knows it. Mohammad Ali's issues were well documented in the early 80s.

I do think there needs to be funding to help these players and the owners tried to get some more into the last agreement. Players association generally don't want to pitch in and choose too keep their % for themselves. See what Ditka said about Upshaw if you don't believe me. Regardless of fault, once known, it should become a players association program and Ditka has long advocated percentage of pay based funding for retired players. When you bargain a contract based agreement using percentages of take, insurance and pension issues become the responsibility of the union.

It is amusing you talk of people sticking their heads in the sand.

Concussions were minor injuries; multiple concussions did not increase the risk of further injury; and football did not cause brain damage. "Professional football players do not sustain frequent repetitive blows to the brain on a regular basis,"

If an NFL doctor tells you the above, why would an NFL player think there is a risk? Your bolded statement is straight up denial. Everyone did not know the risks because the NFL was basically telling players that there was no risk. That is the fundamental issue here Bearly. You had the NFL and NFL doctors lying to the players they were suppose to protect.

Bearly · Oct 2, 2013

I never said the NFL didn't hide behind propaganda. I doubt most players even knew they had a position on the matter. By the way, the shut down is Obama's fault, it's just as likely that the world is 5000 years old and global warming is lie. If you believe any of that, you deserve what you get.

Jailbreak · Oct 2, 2013

And now we're on the other side of the spectrum. Anyone who played through college knows what a concussion is. If you're knocked out or seeing stars it's because your brain was impacted. You don't even need to play football to know this. It's the typical, after the fact, capitalize, lawyer garbage that propagates itself. Where the NFL went wrong was with their healthcare.

TheWinman · Oct 2, 2013

Jailbreak said:
And now we're on the other side of the spectrum. Anyone who played through college knows what a concussion is. If you're knocked out or seeing stars it's because your brain was impacted. You don't even need to play football to know this. It's the typical, after the fact, capitalize, lawyer garbage that propagates itself. Where the NFL went wrong was with their healthcare.

Now is the key. And we are seeing the effects of what we know now. We see lots of rule changes, we see parents not allowing their kids to play football and even some high school dropping the sport all together. Now I would say that kids know the risk of concussions if they play football, this was no the case not too long ago. THere is nothing we can do with the helmet or equipment anymore to prevent concussions.

airtime143 · Oct 2, 2013

remydat said:
It is amusing you talk of people sticking their heads in the sand.

Concussions were minor injuries; multiple concussions did not increase the risk of further injury; and football did not cause brain damage. "Professional football players do not sustain frequent repetitive blows to the brain on a regular basis,"

If an NFL doctor tells you the above, why would an NFL player think there is a risk? Your bolded statement is straight up denial. Everyone did not know the risks because the NFL was basically telling players that there was no risk. That is the fundamental issue here Bearly. You had the NFL and NFL doctors lying to the players they were suppose to protect.

This.

The NFL is God to its players. they spoon feed them everything.
At the rookie symposium there is a class about how to handle sudden wealth, who to hang out with, and how to identify who is just using you.
There are very strong rules on personal conduct that rule every moment of your life handed down by the nfl.
They tell you when to train, what to eat, who you can and cannot hang out with.....
And an all powerful authority telling you "Concussions were minor injuries; multiple concussions did not increase the risk of further injury; and football did not cause brain damage. "Professional football players do not sustain frequent repetitive blows to the brain on a regular basis"..... well.... that is law.

Having the control the NFL does over its players, their own doctors that toe the company line..... it very much was a case of covering up the facts and a very heinous betrayal of the players trust.

What is telling is how the NFL denied everything, drug its feet through the entire process..... but when they were faced with engaging in the discovery portion of the trial they chose to cough up a billion rather than let anyone know who knew what at what time.
There was no way the NFL was going to let that out.
That reeks of guilt.

Bearly · Oct 2, 2013

The players have agents, advisers, parents and counselors. They are also 22 and unlikely to take much heed in advice or warnings but that doesn't suspend self accountability for ones choices. I feel bad for these players and think something should be in place for their continued well being but it was a conscious choice to accept the risk of occasional unconsciousness and it's possible affects. There is severe trauma risk in football as well and everybody knows it. Might as well ban the sport if everything is taken out of the realm of choice. At that age I was invincible and I'm sure most felt the same. Anybody here choose not to play for NFL pay given the God given talent to do so?

My point isn't that the NFL did no wrong. They did. It just wouldn't have mattered a lick unless they chose to enforce something as they do now.

remydat · Oct 2, 2013

Bearly said:
I never said the NFL didn't hide behind propaganda. I doubt most players even knew they had a position on the matter. By the way, the shut down is Obama's fault, it's just as likely that the world is 5000 years old and global warming is lie. If you believe any of that, you deserve what you get.

Umm, did you miss where the NFL officially sent out the following.

The rancor would spill into the ensuing days. Dave Viano, who co-chaired the MTBI Committee with Casson, tried to get Guskiewicz to sign on to a statement that doubts remained about the effect of repeat concussions. Guskiewicz said the statement was similar to one contained in a pamphlet released to NFL players that fall. That pamphlet contended:

Current research with professional athletes has not shown that having more than one or two concussions leads to permanent problems if each injury is managed properly. It is important to understand that there is no magic number for how many concussions is too many. Research is currently underway to determine if there are any long-term effects of concussions in NFL athletes.

This is not hiding behind propaganda. This is the NFL willfully misleading or lying to players. They didn't just merely hide the link between football and head injuries. They actively tried to perpetuate the myth that there was no link period.

remydat · Oct 2, 2013

Bearly said:
The players have agents, advisers, parents and counselors. They are also 22 and unlikely to take much heed in advice or warnings but that doesn't suspend self accountability for ones choices. I feel bad for these players and think something should be in place for their continued well being but it was a conscious choice to accept the risk of occasional unconsciousness and it's possible affects. There is severe trauma risk in football as well and everybody knows it. Might as well ban the sport if everything is taken out of the realm of choice. At that age I was invincible and I'm sure most felt the same. Anybody here choose not to play for NFL pay given the God given talent to do so?

My point isn't that the NFL did no wrong. They did. It just wouldn't have mattered a lick unless they chose to enforce something as they do now.

I am an educated person. I have several graduate degrees. None of that matters when it comes to medical advice because my degree is not in medicine. Doctors go to med school. I don't. Neither did the vast majority of agents, advisers, parents, counselors, nor the 22 year old kid.

So when the NFL is officially telling these people that they have commissioned studies and had respected neurosurgeons names attached to these studies saying there is little reason to worry then guess what, they will not worry. These dudes had official scientific medical journals allegedly serving as their mouthpiece spreading lies and disinformation about the issue and you think a parent is going to be like, "Well I am not a neurosurgeon like the guy telling you everything is fine but I did stay at a holiday inn express last night and I think there is a problem."

I just think it is weird that when medical professionals are allegedly on the take and lying to people they are suppose to be trying to protect that you want to focus not on these people who have potentially violated their duty of care but on the players and their associates because they dared to trust what the NFL's doctors and experts told them.

KittiesKorner · Oct 2, 2013

I just wonder what will happen to the league. The concussion discussions start as early as pop warner (trust me; I'm a doctor!) so I think airtime's take is disingenuous. But I do think the NFL acted shadily.

Dementia pugilistica has been clinically well documented but has changed nothing (although the popularity of the sport has declined), so I suspect mot much in terms of law will change. Nor do I think it will become ghettoized in the way malcolm gladwell predicted. I think they will just keep adding rules that make people cry flag football. Then again, Teddy Roosevelt failed at regulating it but that was 1904 and we are so much further along... Oh wait

Raskolnikov · Oct 2, 2013

yeah....my issue is that everyone who ever played football knew that they played at the risk of death by the time they were in college football, and they still played. When I was playing rugby, people get very serious and focused before a game for a reason, we knew we were risking everything.

Concussions and the latent effects of multiples is something, but it isn't everything. (the long term medical care should still be better)

remydat · Oct 2, 2013

ole69 said:
I just wonder what will happen to the league. The concussion discussions start as early as pop warner (trust me; I'm a doctor!) so I think airtime's take is disingenuous. But I do think the NFL acted shadily.

Dementia pugilistica has been clinically well documented but has changed nothing (although the popularity of the sport has declined), so I suspect mot much in terms of law will change. Nor do I think it will become ghettoized in the way malcolm gladwell predicted. I think they will just keep adding rules that make people cry flag football. Then again, Teddy Roosevelt failed at regulating it but that was 1904 and we are so much further along... Oh wait

I don't have a kid but if I did, I would never encourage him to play football. I would encourage him to play basketball, baseball or some other sport and so the only way he would ever end up on the football field is if he expressed a desire that I had never tried to cultivate in him and basically kept begging me to play. Otherwise, if he is content playing basketball, baseball or some other sport then no reason for me to take the risk.

So that is where you might say a change. Before a parent might just have their kid try out several sports with football among them. Now, as more of this information comes out, they might just have they kid try out for sports other than football if they want them to learn the values that sports can teach them.

remydat · Oct 2, 2013

Raskolnikov said:
yeah....my issue is that everyone who ever played football knew that they played at the risk of death by the time they were in college football, and they still played. When I was playing rugby, people get very serious and focused before a game for a reason, we knew we were risking everything.

Concussions and the latent effects of multiples is something, but it isn't everything. (the long term medical care should still be better)

Did your doctor tell you that you had nothing to fear from the head injuries caused in Rugby because studies showed those head injuries were just minor injuries?

KittiesKorner · Oct 2, 2013

Either way interesting intersection of a booming market with a shifting(?) cultural perspective but I guess you could have said the same about cigarettes at some point. I would miss football as I know it but it's incontrovertible that these concussions cause long-term damage so you know it's only a matter of time before cutler opens fire in a mall, at which point the haters will say he was perfectly lucid while doing so

xer0h0ur · Oct 2, 2013

Isn't pushing your kid to play a sport just as bad as keeping him away from a sport? Just sayin.

remydat · Oct 2, 2013

ole69 said:
Either way interesting intersection of a booming market with a shifting(?) cultural perspective but I guess you could have said the same about cigarettes at some point. I would miss football as I know it but it's incontrovertible that these concussions cause long-term damage so you know it's only a matter of time before cutler opens fire in a mall, at which point the haters will say he was perfectly lucid while doing so

Well the NFL would probably be happy if Cutler went ape shit vs another player as Cutler is probably the one player the media wouldn't immediately blame it on football but rather the fact Cutler was always a douchebag, lol.

remydat · Oct 2, 2013

xer0h0ur said:
Isn't pushing your kid to play a sport just as bad as keeping him away from a sport? Just sayin.

Who said anything about pushing? I said encourage. Personally, I think any kid needs to have interests outside of just academics. So I would encourage them to play several sports just as I would encourage them to try other extra-curricular stuff like music lessons, after school clubs, etc. Ultimately, they then can decide which they prefer and if that is not sports but playing the piano or being in the science club then so be it.

The larger point was I would not be including football in that list of activities. It would have to be something they discover on their own and beg me to do. Incidentally I went to a liberal acts school where you had to take subjects in all the major disciplines (arts, humanities, sciences, social sciences, math, english, and phys ed). This was at the college level mind you not just high school.

Bearly · Oct 2, 2013

remydat said:
Umm, did you miss where the NFL officially sent out the following.

The rancor would spill into the ensuing days. Dave Viano, who co-chaired the MTBI Committee with Casson, tried to get Guskiewicz to sign on to a statement that doubts remained about the effect of repeat concussions. Guskiewicz said the statement was similar to one contained in a pamphlet released to NFL players that fall. That pamphlet contended:

Current research with professional athletes has not shown that having more than one or two concussions leads to permanent problems if each injury is managed properly. It is important to understand that there is no magic number for how many concussions is too many. Research is currently underway to determine if there are any long-term effects of concussions in NFL athletes.

This is not hiding behind propaganda. This is the NFL willfully misleading or lying to players. They didn't just merely hide the link between football and head injuries. They actively tried to perpetuate the myth that there was no link period.

My examples are similar lies conveyed as truth in the form of propaganda. Jesus, do you need to redefine everything to suit your needs.

Raskolnikov · Oct 2, 2013

remydat said:
Did your doctor tell you that you had nothing to fear from the head injuries caused in Rugby because studies showed those head injuries were just minor injuries?

the point is they knew they could die, so anything less than that is an implied risk, that their decision to play anyway at threat of death lets us go back in hindsight, and assume they would have played anyway.

Bearly · Oct 2, 2013

remydat said:
I am an educated person. I have several graduate degrees. None of that matters when it comes to medical advice because my degree is not in medicine. Doctors go to med school. I don't. Neither did the vast majority of agents, advisers, parents, counselors, nor the 22 year old kid.

So when the NFL is officially telling these people that they have commissioned studies and had respected neurosurgeons names attached to these studies saying there is little reason to worry then guess what, they will not worry. These dudes had official scientific medical journals allegedly serving as their mouthpiece spreading lies and disinformation about the issue and you think a parent is going to be like, "Well I am not a neurosurgeon like the guy telling you everything is fine but I did stay at a holiday inn express last night and I think there is a problem."

I just think it is weird that when medical professionals are allegedly on the take and lying to people they are suppose to be trying to protect that you want to focus not on these people who have potentially violated their duty of care but on the players and their associates because they dared to trust what the NFL's doctors and experts told them.

These are great talking points but the studies were done after most of those looking for a share had already stopped playing and the rest gave two shits about it anyway as was demonstrated by the overwhelming riskier helmet choice when presented with correct information and option to improve their risk of concussions.

Again, I never said the NFL is innocent of misleading statements here. They just aren't the cause of a significant increase to the ongoing problem. If the issue is that action wasn't taken sooner by the NFL to save the players from themselves, I could agree but it's the shift of most blame to the NFL, even if they wrongfully covered their asses, that I don't like. They should get spanked for their denial but not need to accept all responsibility for common sense choices made by others.

Packer Fan · Oct 2, 2013

remydat said:
I don't have a kid but if I did, I would never encourage him to play football. I would encourage him to play basketball, baseball or some other sport and so the only way he would ever end up on the football field is if he expressed a desire that I had never tried to cultivate in him and basically kept begging me to play. Otherwise, if he is content playing basketball, baseball or some other sport then no reason for me to take the risk.

So that is where you might say a change. Before a parent might just have their kid try out several sports with football among them. Now, as more of this information comes out, they might just have they kid try out for sports other than football if they want them to learn the values that sports can teach them.

There is danger in all sports. Some obviously greater than others. I used to read the baseball encyclopedia when I was a kid (yes, it's basically a book of numbers, I loved baseball and numbers, don't judge me). I was a little surprised when reading the legend of abbreviations that there is one for "killed by pitch".

League of Denial - How the NFL hid the link to brain injuries.

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