League of Denial - How the NFL hid the link to brain injuries.

remydat

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the point is they knew they could die, so anything less than that is an implied risk, that their decision to play anyway at threat of death lets us go back in hindsight, and assume they would have played anyway.

So does that mean that if a car manufacturer lies about the safety of their vehicles that it's cool because you knew you could die when you get behind a vehicle?

A doctor has a greater responsibility to be truthful than other professions. Again would you be cool if your doctor told you that head injuries were just minor so that a corporation could profit from your destroying your brain?
 

remydat

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There is danger in all sports. Some obviously greater than others. I used to read the baseball encyclopedia when I was a kid (yes, it's basically a book of numbers, I loved baseball and numbers, don't judge me). I was a little surprised when reading the legend of abbreviations that there is one for "killed by pitch".

See above. Just because there is danger in something doesn't give a doctor the right to lie about a specific danger that you are not aware of.
 

KittiesKorner

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It raises an interesting question. How much blame do you ascribe to the league and how much to complacently unethical doctors? Were these players prohibited from seeking second opinions or having non-league-approved physicians?

What did their non-neurologists have to say between their retirements and their filing their suits?
 

remydat

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Bearly,

I believe the OP was clear that my reason for posting was in regards to people claiming NFL players knew the risks. So not sure why you keep bringing up stuff I never discussed. I don't care about the lawsuit or trying to apportion blame.

If I as an NFL player am told of the risks and chose to accept that risk then so be it. However that does not give anyone the right to intentionally mislead or lie to me about the risks with the defense being oh well he would have made the same decision regardless. Especially when said person is in the medical profession.

So back to the OP. The idea that NFL players knew the risks is bullshit if the allegations are true. The NFL engaged in a campaign to mislead and lie to them and employed respected people in the medical profession to do so. What say you to that?
 

remydat

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It raises an interesting question. How much blame do you ascribe to the league and how much to complacently unethical doctors? Were these players prohibited from seeking second opinions or having non-league-approved physicians?

What did their non-neurologists have to say between their retirements and their filing their suits?

Why would you seek a second opinion when you are told it is no big deal and unless you happen to have lingering effects won't find out the impact until 10-20 years from the time the damage was done?

Aside from that it is clear the medical profession at least those with access to the data are complicit.
 

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See above. Just because there is danger in something doesn't give a doctor the right to lie about a specific danger that you are not aware of.

I'm not arguing with that. I find that absolutely baffling that they hid anything.

But I don't understand how the NFL are the only people with information on this. I posted an SI article allegedly from 1962 about boxing and the severe and permanent impact on the brain. I remember reading a similar one 20 yrs ago. So you have athletes at top notch universities playing competitive football, playing this violent and life threatening and brain threatening game and no professor makes the connection and writes a paper on it? No athletic trainer connects the dots? Please. Oh, just pin it on the NFL, they hid stuff.
 

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If there is blame to be put at the feet of the NFL, isn't more the NFLPA?

Although I have doubt that the NFL had the dirt on some top secret neurological data that they were with holding from their players and the rest of the civilized world.
 

KittiesKorner

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Why would you seek a second opinion when you are told it is no big deal and unless you happen to have lingering effects won't find out the impact until 10-20 years from the time the damage was done?

Aside from that it is clear the medical profession at least those with access to the data are complicit.

Because you encountered doctors that existed outside the NFL before and after your tenure?

I am not disagreeing with anything you've said; I am ruminating on the dimensions of the 'complex' (legal) issue it is becoming (again).

Please try to remember that
 

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I just wonder what will happen to the league. The concussion discussions start as early as pop warner (trust me; I'm a doctor!) so I think airtime's take is disingenuous. But I do think the NFL acted shadily.

Dementia pugilistica has been clinically well documented but has changed nothing (although the popularity of the sport has declined), so I suspect mot much in terms of law will change. Nor do I think it will become ghettoized in the way malcolm gladwell predicted. I think they will just keep adding rules that make people cry flag football. Then again, Teddy Roosevelt failed at regulating it but that was 1904 and we are so much further along... Oh wait

For all people involved. I was doing a pop warner game recently where a kid lowered his head into another kid after scoring a touchdown. A shitty move by the kid to be sure, and he was flagged for it accordingly. Later we were told the kid who was hit had developed 'concussion-like' symptoms, despite no athletic trainer to be found.

I hate to keep beating this drum, but the residual effect is beginning to take its place at the lower levels. Football is an expensive sport as it is, and you'll probably see it getting much more expensive due to the insurance schools/leagues will have to carry, and laws such as Rocky's Law (in Illinois, at least). From what I have seen, the numbers are down at the youth levels. I referee a youth league where a lot of the Chicago Catholic schools get players from. We have teams that are folding, not having both teams available, and lower numbers. I used to referee a bigger youth league that has around 16 teams. Talking to people who still ref that league they are seeing numbers down.

It's trickled its way up to the high schools as well. A prominent Catholic high school in the Chicagoland area had 30 kids go out for freshman football. At present, I believe they are down to 26. 100 freshman went out for soccer. This is a trend that is going to continue, and I personally believe football will soon go the route of AAU.
 

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Although I have doubt that the NFL had the dirt on some top secret neurological data that they were with holding from their players and the rest of the civilized world.

That's what I'm getting at. And although they probably didn't have the scientific data to back it up, I'm guessing even cavemen knew of the effects of getting clubbed in the head.

And I'm being lazy now so I'm not going to reread everything again but if a doctor lied or hid the truth, why doesn't this fall on the doctor. I guess I'm missing that part.
 

remydat

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I'm not arguing with that. I find that absolutely baffling that they hid anything.

But I don't understand how the NFL are the only people with information on this. I posted an SI article allegedly from 1962 about boxing and the severe and permanent impact on the brain. I remember reading a similar one 20 yrs ago. So you have athletes at top notch universities playing competitive football, playing this violent and life threatening and brain threatening game and no professor makes the connection and writes a paper on it? No athletic trainer connects the dots? Please. Oh, just pin it on the NFL, they hid stuff.

Boxing involves obvious direct and repeated blows to the head. You are talking about hundreds of blows. The NFL was arguing that NFL players were not routinely exposed to repeated blows to the head because they weren't subject to hundreds of direct hits to the head without head gear.

What people did not appreciate is a boxer takes months off between fights which allows their brain time to recover. NFL players suffers blows to the head and then do it all over again next week.
 

remydat

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Because you encountered doctors that existed outside the NFL before and after your tenure?

I am not disagreeing with anything you've said; I am ruminating on the dimensions of the 'complex' (legal) issue it is becoming (again).

Please try to remember that

Yeah I get that is what you are saying but my point was that these repeated blows may not present problems until years after so it wasn't as obvious as it seems that it must be from football when you are talking about people suffering from dementia or depression 20 years after their last NFL hit.
 

remydat

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That's what I'm getting at. And although they probably didn't have the scientific data to back it up, I'm guessing even cavemen knew of the effects of getting clubbed in the head.

And I'm being lazy now so I'm not going to reread everything again but if a doctor lied or hid the truth, why doesn't this fall on the doctor. I guess I'm missing that part.

Who said it doesn't fall on the doctor too? But just like if the mob boss orders the hit the feds are more concerned with getting the mob boss not the hitman, the NFL is the mob boss sponsoring the cover up.
 

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Boxing involves obvious direct and repeated blows to the head. You are talking about hundreds of blows. The NFL was arguing that NFL players were not routinely exposed to repeated blows to the head because they weren't subject to hundreds of direct hits to the head without head gear.

What people did not appreciate is a boxer takes months off between fights which allows their brain time to recover. NFL players suffers blows to the head and then do it all over again next week.

Certainly boxing is more extreme. Intent to hurt, no helmet, more repetitions. But even with the helmet that same theory of the skull moving and the brain smashing into it would still apply to some degree. As far as the time to recover, I can't speak as a doctor but I think there must be instances when permanent damage is done and if permanent can't be reversed. Whether boxing, playing football, or slipping in the shower and knocking your skull on porcelain.

Nationwide notice - No More Showers - Sincerely, Roger Goodell, because we care about human safety.
 

KittiesKorner

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Yeah I get that is what you are saying but my point was that these repeated blows may not present problems until years after so it wasn't as obvious as it seems that it must be from football when you are talking about people suffering from dementia or depression 20 years after their last NFL hit.

I get that but dementia from repeated blows to the head had been established well before mcmahon et al. Doctors don't, amd didn't, need to distinguish force of brain dislodgment by sport. Also, what were the non-league dr. Shills telling guys like duerson, mcmahon, seau in the interim? People knew but didn't want to dip their toes in the litigious aspect.

Here's why I think it's better late than never: I hope it results in nfl retirees getting some benefits from the league. That's the optimal outcome to me
 

remydat

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Yeah but post football these guys are going to regular doctors not neurologists. When you have leading neurologists saying this stuff is just minor injuries, what local general medicine doctor is going to dispute that when their patient shows no symptoms and may not until 20 years later?

Look up Bennett Amalu. When he as a relatively unknown doctor first diagnosed Mike Webster as having CTE (first NFL player to be diagnosed) and later after finding out he was a former NFL player asked experts in the field if a link was possible, the NFL spent years trying to ruin his reputation and having their respected neurologists discredit him.

The NFL was not just sitting idle. When people started making the connection they tried to silence them.
 

Bearly

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Bearly,

I believe the OP was clear that my reason for posting was in regards to people claiming NFL players knew the risks. So not sure why you keep bringing up stuff I never discussed. I don't care about the lawsuit or trying to apportion blame.

If I as an NFL player am told of the risks and chose to accept that risk then so be it. However that does not give anyone the right to intentionally mislead or lie to me about the risks with the defense being oh well he would have made the same decision regardless. Especially when said person is in the medical profession.

So back to the OP. The idea that NFL players knew the risks is bullshit if the allegations are true. The NFL engaged in a campaign to mislead and lie to them and employed respected people in the medical profession to do so. What say you to that?

That the players wouldn't assume risk because they weren't told or told otherwise is not a view I can accept and please stop trying to male a big picture issue into your minutia. I knew hitting my head too often was bad thing in grade school.
 

Bearly

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Why would you seek a second opinion when you are told it is no big deal and unless you happen to have lingering effects won't find out the impact until 10-20 years from the time the damage was done?

Aside from that it is clear the medical profession at least those with access to the data are complicit.

This assumption of player idiocy is over the top. It seems as though common sense has become a thing of the past. This is why sleeping pills have 'may cause drowsiness' warnings and the Ipod shuffle, 'do not eat'. Thank god we got that great info or who knows what may have happened.
 

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Yeah but post football these guys are going to regular doctors not neurologists. When you have leading neurologists saying this stuff is just minor injuries, what local general medicine doctor is going to dispute that when their patient shows no symptoms and may not until 20 years later?

Look up Bennett Amalu. When he as a relatively unknown doctor first diagnosed Mike Webster as having CTE (first NFL player to be diagnosed) and later after finding out he was a former NFL player asked experts in the field if a link was possible, the NFL spent years trying to ruin his reputation and having their respected neurologists discredit him.

The NFL was not just sitting idle. When people started making the connection they tried to silence them.

No leading neurologist outside the league said this was minor. And nfl retirees have better access to specialists like neurologists than you or I. Non-league neurologists just didn't get involved because they have more important things to worry about like involuntarily contracted diseases like multiple sclerosis, epilepsy, ALS, Parkinson's, etc.

If you're a clinical neurogist in Oklahoma, Texas, Ohio, or any other big football state and someone brings in their kid with a concussion from football, you realize pretty quickly that no amount of discouragement is going to work and you move on.

That said, as this issue gains traction, maybe that will change, but I kind of doubt it only because it's such a huge market
 
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Boxing involves obvious direct and repeated blows to the head. You are talking about hundreds of blows. The NFL was arguing that NFL players were not routinely exposed to repeated blows to the head because they weren't subject to hundreds of direct hits to the head without head gear.

What people did not appreciate is a boxer takes months off between fights which allows their brain time to recover. NFL players suffers blows to the head and then do it all over again next week.
You're still way wrong on this. You think of top fighters who make the big money and even they are taking way more forceful blows in 1 fight than a football player w/helmet will take all year on average. They also spend a month or 2 of sparring in preparation for their next fight. You act like these players are routinely taking heavy blows to their unprotected heads and it's simply not true.
 

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