IST: Pittsburgh Pirates (35-37) at Chicago Cubs (30-40) (June 20-June 22)

beckdawg said:

As for wOBA, i use wRC+ a lot which uses wOBA as a component. I tend not to dive into all metrics when talking about stuff because they frighten people who don't understand them. As for WAR, you're looking at the wrong type of war with regard to Barney. FWar has Barney as a 2.2 WAR player in 2012. BWAR has him at the 4.6 you state. That's why I don't like bWAR and never use it. At 2.2 WAR, I think you can make a fair argument that gold glove defense and a 74 wRC+ player is league average. I mean he hit .254/.299/.354 that year which is bad but not the shit he's thrown up the past 2 years. That's like Schierholtz level last year. Another example of poor usage of bWAR is Shark. His bWAR is 2.2 last year and his fWAR is 2.8. I know you would argue that Shark is much closer to a 3 win player even last year than he was a 2 win player. By in large, I've not found many fWAR's where you can't make a case for the level of player that it says they were. Even someone like Edwin Jackson at 2 wins last year because he threw 175.1 innings of ~5 ERA ball. While that doesn't seem "league average" consider what WAR is trying to represent which is to say value above a 4A player. You need to look no farther than a team with a decimated starting staff to see what 4A pitcher do to a team. Granted a 5 ERA may be in line but the underlying numbers(FIP) suggests closer to a 4 ERA is where he "should" have been similar to the way they say Shark should have been closer to 3.77.

Again, WAR isn't the end all stat but what else quickly encompasses everything a player does in an unbiased manner for discussion? For example, Castro is a very good hitter(3rd best in the league was wRC+ states) at SS. But does that mean you should ignore his defensive impact? Different people are going to put different personal weights on defense. That's just the way it is. But if you totally leave it out of the equation you talk about a player like Ozzie Smith who hit .262/.337/.328 with a wOBA of .305 and a wRC+ of 90. That's hardly a HOF player without the defense and might not even be league average in terms of hitter.

Am I minimizing the good with Castro and exemplifying the bad? Perhaps, but that's just because I'm dealing with people who in my opinion are putting slightly too much weight to the positive side. Go back and look at some of the topics from late last year and you'll see I was doing the opposite because many where too negative on him. Granted I liked Rizzo a hell of a lot more because his path to elite player was more realistic but I did defend Castro nonetheless. As I said, I think Castro is a pretty good player. I mean Edgar Rentria was the starting shortstop on 2 world series teams and was a 5x All-Star and won 3 silver sluggers. I think that's a pretty fair comparison to what Castro can be. Furcal was a starter on one world series team and was a 3x All-Star. Again, maybe slightly low in comparison but it's not outrageous.

And talking about the possibility of trading someone like Castro, the Marlins got back Armando Almanza, Braden Looper and Pablo Ozuna from the Cards in return. So, it clearly didn't work out for them. The Nomar traded worked out better for the Red Sox getting Doug Mientkiewicz, and Orlando Cabrera on their way to the title. The Omar Vizqquel trade was shitty too Felix Fermin, Reggie Jefferson and cash for him. So, I'm not really saying it's a great idea to trade Castro just that it's something that isn't unfathomable for a team to do.

Frankly, if we look at something like the Edgar Rentaria trade to the Cardinals we see what I've long been hoping the cubs do. That sort of trade exemplifies why the cardinals of the 2000's were so successful without throwing money around like some here want. Looper had a career ERA of 4.15 with 5.1 fWAR. Ozuna was a career 75 wRC+ with a - 1.3 fWAR. Almanzza had a career ERA of 4.82 and a -1.2 career fWAR. You might think well Miami was just a moron. Perhaps but Looper was the 3rd overall pick in the 1996 draft. It may seem like a steal now but Looper at the time was as thought of as someone like Aaron Sanchez. Those three players were the cost for the 10.8 fWAR Renteria returned to the Cardinals.

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SilenceS said:

I have to go to work, but Im gonna respectively end this discussion because we arent going to agree with the WAR stat.

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nwfisch said:

Rizzogasam :fap:

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SilenceS said:

Lol 1st and second no one out. Travis Wood sack bunts then Castillo strikes out swinging and Ruggiano looks at a fastball for strike three. This lineup is still so bad.

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theberserkfury said:

I'd like our chances better with Wood swinging away than trusting someone other than Rizzo and Castro to deliver...

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