The Jon Lester Discussion Thread

Zvbxrpl · Nov 28, 2014

TC in Mississippi said:
They ignored TOR pitching by design instead exploiting the market inequity if right handed power which they are now poised to start seeing results from. From the minute they drafted Kris Bryant they made the decision to pay for pitching and I firmly believe they'll do that. There's nothing they said they were going to do that they haven't done so I'm inclined to believe them. As far a prospects nobody knows for sure but most best guesses have Soler as a legitimate major league hitter. No guarantees, as you say, is s given but who expects those? I like what I see. Kris Bryant is probably the most elite prospect to come up since Mike Trout who was the best player in baseball within three months of his major league debut. Now I don't have those kind of expectations for Bryant but I do expect him to be a good major league hitter by the end of 2015. Again am I betting on the team to be a WS contender in 2016? No, baseball is too unpredictable, but it is the stated goal of this organization and again I'm inclined to believe they can make it happen.

These guys showed a lot of guts to lose for three years on purpose in a major market and I respect that because it needed to be done. They've also followed a rebuilding path never tried before and it's been fascinating to watch. I'm predicting nothing but I think they can do say they will and that's contend in 2016. I hope they add Lester and it looks to me like they will. That's a hell of a start.

They gotta develop pitching. Good pitching. Period. They can't win a WS to me without it. Yeah, Arrieta in 1 year here looks like what he should of been. Theo dumpster dove and right now looks great.

Lester would improve the rotation.

The jury is out on Hendricks. Promising, but people will catch onto him. People loved Randy Wells after his first year here too.

I don't think we remember the same Mike Trout's first three months. Guy came up in the beginning of July, 2011 and stunk up the joint.

Beginning of 2012 is probably what you're thinking of. Regardless, I think that guy's juicing. Besides the point.....

Define 'rebuilding path.' Because I fail to believe tanking to acquire top talents through the draft and signing garbage players to flip them at the first sign of a hot streak for more prospects hasn't been done before.

Bulk hitting drafting? Twins did it with Mauer in 01, Dennard Span in 02, Matt Moses in 03, Trevor Plouffe in 04. Very similar if you look at it. Twins took the best hitter first then bulk drafted pitching the following rounds of the top 10. Go back to 1998 and Cuddyer was 1st round, 99 Morneau in the 2nd after bust BJ Garbe, the top OF draftee taken 4th overall.

The only exception to the rule was Aaron Heilman in 2000. Remember that chode on the cubs a few years back?

But what killed the Twins during their great run with Gardy? Pitching. They stole Johan Santana from the Astros in the rule 5 draft, but he was hurt.

I'll give you this, they're off to a hell of a start here with what they got. And yeah, the rebuild has been a tank job that's frustrated many, but like you; I'm waiting and seeing.

SilenceS · Nov 28, 2014

People who say the Cubs have ignored pitching is not a factual statement. They have taken the best players available with top picks and gone pitching heavy after the first round. They drafted schwaber to specifically sign tor talent later in the draft ala Dylan cease. As of right now, last year when Hoffman went down they decided to go a different route with schwarber. The year before they decided kris Bryant over Jonathan gray and Bryant has not disappointed. The only draft would be when they drafted almora over pitching and I wasn't a fan of the almora pick. It isn't easy to get tor pitching anymore. Arm injuries are at an all time high and the Cubs went with hitting. Why? Hitters make it over pitchers by a good margin and the league is very pitcher friendly right now. They have so many bats that teams will
Cover even as prospects that they will get their ace one way or another.

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Zvbxrpl · Nov 28, 2014

They've thrown shit against the wall and hope its stuck, and so far it hasn't.

The best pitchers we look forward to in the minors have come from other teams sans Pierce Johnson. Hendricks and Edwards from the Rangers. All three regardless don't top out as 'ace material.' I don't count Edwards because he doesn't have the durability.

But Underwood? Cease? Zastrysny? Conception? Stinette, Prieto, Skulina, Masek, and more have all been underwhelming. Ryan McNeill from 2012 looked incredible until he encountered TJ surgery.

The Giants, who we all want to model didn't ignore the top talents. We just saw what a 10th overall pick can do in an incredible World Series and playoffs.

The Cards don't ignore top talent pitching (if it falls to them).

Nats didn't either.

Even the Twins, who I mentioned are similar took Aaron Johnson and Aaron Heilman in 2000 with their 2 1st round picks.

Get their ace one way or another? Teams don't just let them walk away easy. Right now the Cubs don't have a guy who can go out every 5th game and dominate. Many teams dont, but those who are constantly in contention do. Bumgardner after Lincecum and Cain. Wainwright. Shields did it for KC, Kershaw, Cueto. Darvish. Price, Verlander.

That's why I'm saying 'damn the costs, get Lester.' He's the closest thing that can right now and this rebuild gets sped up.

But naturally, people will bitch about the money.

brett05 · Nov 28, 2014

TC in Mississippi said:
These guys showed a lot of guts to lose for three years on purpose in a major market and I respect that because it needed to be done.

They did not have to tank from day one three times in a row. No team ever has to. It's a lie you so eagerly swallowed whole.

They stole money from their fans plain and simple. Call a spade a spade. Even if the team somehow manages to be contenders for several years it does not mean that they were anything but utter thieves to their enemies...no...to the casual observer?...no...to the ones that have been brainwashed into accepting a lack of respect and then was willing to keep paying to be abused with their fandom over and over again.

"Thank you sir may I have another."

chibears55 · Nov 28, 2014

brett05 said:
They did not have to tank from day one three times in a row. No team ever has to. It's a lie you so eagerly swallowed whole.

They stole money from their fans plain and simple. Call a spade a spade. Even if the team somehow manages to be contenders for several years it does not mean that they were anything but utter thieves to their enemies...no...to the casual observer?...no...to the ones that have been brainwashed into accepting a lack of respect and then was willing to keep paying to be abused with their fandom over and over again.

"Thank you sir may I have another."

http://www.csnchicago.com/blog/kapman/ricketts-forced-tribune-take-huge-debt-cubs-purchase

Did they tank or were they abiding by a deal made with Zell and had to lower payroll by 40 mil. ?

If the answer is that they had to abide by the deal and drastically cut payroll, then there was no way they were going to produce a competitive roster by trading or not resigning the higher cost players and bringing in low cost less talented players to replace them to get to the payroll they needed to go down to, especially with no ready talented prospects in the system to make that transition a little easier.

If im wrong then set me straight. . But ive heard and have believed that was a big reason why they went the route they took to wipe it all clean for a couple years and build it up from the bottom. .

Boobaby1 · Nov 28, 2014

brett05 said:
They did not have to tank from day one three times in a row. No team ever has to. It's a lie you so eagerly swallowed whole.

They stole money from their fans plain and simple. Call a spade a spade. Even if the team somehow manages to be contenders for several years it does not mean that they were anything but utter thieves to their enemies...no...to the casual observer?...no...to the ones that have been brainwashed into accepting a lack of respect and then was willing to keep paying to be abused with their fandom over and over again.

"Thank you sir may I have another."

Did they tank intentionally? Yes!

But I will say that even though I didn't necessarily agree with it when they did it, I now am glad they chose that route. Sure, they could have tried and been competitive, but the cost of doing so would have been astronomical to put talent around the guys they had, especially when a lot are no longer playing baseball.

Also keep in mind, by trying to field a competitive team, they do not have a lot of players like Hendricks, Edwards, Ramirez, Grimm, Arrieta, Strop, and McKinney, and chances are, they don't have Bryant either.

The two they probably could have received was Russell and Schwarber IF they were not in the playoffs. If they were, they don't get those two either.

Not saying the Cubs could not have done it (make the playoffs), but the odds were heavily stacked against it.

I would think that the White Sox would be in a more stable position to spend and contend than the Cubs since they have some good young talent already established. At least from my perspective, more than the Cubs do or did. They at least have an ACE, and a seasoned player prior to becoming rookie of the year to mention a couple.

BearAttack · Nov 28, 2014

I'm trusting the front office, but Lester would be a great pick-up. Need a front line guy like him. Jake Arrieta will probably regress this year.

SilenceS · Nov 28, 2014

Zvbxrpl said:
They've thrown shit against the wall and hope its stuck, and so far it hasn't.

The best pitchers we look forward to in the minors have come from other teams sans Pierce Johnson. Hendricks and Edwards from the Rangers. All three regardless don't top out as 'ace material.' I don't count Edwards because he doesn't have the durability.

But Underwood? Cease? Zastrysny? Conception? Stinette, Prieto, Skulina, Masek, and more have all been underwhelming. Ryan McNeill from 2012 looked incredible until he encountered TJ surgery.

The Giants, who we all want to model didn't ignore the top talents. We just saw what a 10th overall pick can do in an incredible World Series and playoffs.

The Cards don't ignore top talent pitching (if it falls to them).

Nats didn't either.

Even the Twins, who I mentioned are similar took Aaron Johnson and Aaron Heilman in 2000 with their 2 1st round picks.

Get their ace one way or another? Teams don't just let them walk away easy. Right now the Cubs don't have a guy who can go out every 5th game and dominate. Many teams dont, but those who are constantly in contention do. Bumgardner after Lincecum and Cain. Wainwright. Shields did it for KC, Kershaw, Cueto. Darvish. Price, Verlander.

That's why I'm saying 'damn the costs, get Lester.' He's the closest thing that can right now and this rebuild gets sped up.

But naturally, people will bitch about the money.

Um what, Dylan Cease was signed knowing he will have to have surgery. He was a top 15 talent. Duane Underwood made huge strides last year and is TOR material. Pierce Johnson is a year away and is a 3 type pitcher. CJ Edwards has video game numbers in the minors. His one concern is durability. The Cubs farm system is rated one of the best ever with hitters. The league last year showed that hitting is more needed then pitching. Stop looking at the present time and see the future. The Cubs have tons of value in their minors and guess what low budget teams need. Prospects, its how they survive. I am all for signing Jon Lester and the Cubs do not have a wealth of strong pitching in the minors but their bats make up for it. They have not ignored pitching in any way. They just went a different route which arm chair GM's have a hard time seeing. Know the whole org and not just what is on the major league roster. The cubs arent winning the world series next year. It doesnt mean they arent building towards a dominant stretch. Also, the Cardinals have made a living off what the Cubs are doing right now. People say follow the Cardinals and Theo and them are trying.

SilenceS · Nov 28, 2014

brett05 said:
They did not have to tank from day one three times in a row. No team ever has to. It's a lie you so eagerly swallowed whole.

They stole money from their fans plain and simple. Call a spade a spade. Even if the team somehow manages to be contenders for several years it does not mean that they were anything but utter thieves to their enemies...no...to the casual observer?...no...to the ones that have been brainwashed into accepting a lack of respect and then was willing to keep paying to be abused with their fandom over and over again.

"Thank you sir may I have another."

I felt like I have been robber going to see the White Sox play. The atmosphere sucked and they were horrible. the Sox must have fucked me over.

brett05 · Nov 28, 2014

Pitiful troll attempt SilenceS

Parade_Rain · Nov 28, 2014

Actually S made a great point.

Mitchapalooza · Nov 28, 2014

I agree with silence. I'm a red sox fan so I go to the annual red sox white series once a year. And the white Sox definitely have the worst fans. Place is always half empty. The red sox fans outnumbered the white Sox fans for sure. I've been to various white sox games cause tickets are 8 dollars and it's a good time with my buddies. Honestly the worst fans

Zvbxrpl · Nov 28, 2014

SilenceS said:
Um what, Dylan Cease was signed knowing he will have to have surgery. He was a top 15 talent. Duane Underwood made huge strides last year and is TOR material. Pierce Johnson is a year away and is a 3 type pitcher. CJ Edwards has video game numbers in the minors. His one concern is durability. The Cubs farm system is rated one of the best ever with hitters. The league last year showed that hitting is more needed then pitching. Stop looking at the present time and see the future. The Cubs have tons of value in their minors and guess what low budget teams need. Prospects, its how they survive. I am all for signing Jon Lester and the Cubs do not have a wealth of strong pitching in the minors but their bats make up for it. They have not ignored pitching in any way. They just went a different route which arm chair GM's have a hard time seeing. Know the whole org and not just what is on the major league roster. The cubs arent winning the world series next year. It doesnt mean they arent building towards a dominant stretch. Also, the Cardinals have made a living off what the Cubs are doing right now. People say follow the Cardinals and Theo and them are trying.

Cease hasn't thrown a pitch.

Edwards throws 60 pitches then his shoulder gives out.

So doing well in Kane County makes you TOR material? Shit. Why isn't Randy Wells the ace of the staff then?

You contradict yourself when you say they don't have a wealth of strong pitching, yet go on to say they have not ignored pitching in any way.

I didn't say they ignored pitching. I said they ignored top potential pitching. And signing a high schooler who would have been a top pick but we wont know for at least another year what he is doesn't count. He is 3-4 years away unless he has a tour de force return with no hitches......a bet I'm pretty safe making.

You need pitching and hitting, and right now I'm not worried about the hitting in the pipeline, I'm worried about how they're going to have to score 6 runs a game to beat teams because their starting rotation is average at best.

I look to the present because that's where we are. We aren't living in lala land where everything works out A-Okay and hand picked Theo prospects succeed while everybody else living in reality gets maybe 1 or 2 guys to do it.

Or should I not be so jaded because we have a 21 year old who had a great year at Kane County?

Have a little dignity. Wipe off your chin, man......

Zvbxrpl · Nov 28, 2014

SilenceS said:
I felt like I have been robber going to see the White Sox play. The atmosphere sucked and they were horrible. the Sox must have fucked me over.

Depends who they play. I've seen a few really fun games there. First was Jim Parque serving up a granny to Albert Belle a few months after the Sox didn't want to play him. Their skyboxes are phenomenal.

They're cheap games if you want to see someone good in the AL.

But my friends all HATED Mark Buherle games. They'd be on their 2nd beer and get cut off cause the dude got to the 7th inning 45 minutes in.

nwfisch · Nov 28, 2014

People still think the Cubs are gonna sign Lester?

chibears55 · Nov 28, 2014

nwfisch said:
People still think the Cubs are gonna sign Lester?

No, with the Cardinals backing out of their meeting today
People think the Cubs are 1 of 3 teams if you include SF with Boston that has a chance to sign him.

CSF77 · Nov 28, 2014

I believe it is a 2 horse race to sign Lester. He seems the type that follows his heart. He has a conection to Theo/Jed etc. He has ties to Boston. I believe it will come down to $$$ between the 2.

SF is a long shot. He lives in the ATL area. Not really close to home. No ties to that team. I believe he is just doing the rounds with them with little interest.

STL pullled out I believe because the $$$ went north of what they are willing to go.

Cubs have a huge payroll opening going on. Red sox would go heavy over the tax if they match what the Cubs could spend here. I'm expecting 150 mil to sign him.

I'm seeing a 6 year deal with 25 mil per.

DewsSox79 · Nov 28, 2014

CSF77 said:
I believe it is a 2 horse race to sign Lester. He seems the type that follows his heart. He has a conection to Theo/Jed etc. He has ties to Boston. I believe it will come down to $$$ between the 2.

SF is a long shot. He lives in the ATL area. Not really close to home. No ties to that team. I believe he is just doing the rounds with them with little interest.

STL pullled out I believe because the $$$ went north of what they are willing to go.

Cubs have a huge payroll opening going on. Red sox would go heavy over the tax if they match what the Cubs could spend here. I'm expecting 150 mil to sign him.

I'm seeing a 6 year deal with 25 mil per.

150 million. and year 1 with him is a wash since they arent ready, than you have to worry about injury and backend of the deal. you are paying for potential 2-3 year run if all works out. not worth it.

Sent from My 1998 Palm Pilot Using Tapatalk

CSF77 · Nov 29, 2014

DewsSox79 said:
150 million. and year 1 with him is a wash since they arent ready, than you have to worry about injury and backend of the deal. you are paying for potential 2-3 year run if all works out. not worth it.

Sent from My 1998 Palm Pilot Using Tapatalk

I would prove that the Ricketts are willing to spend on mega deals. It would be a set up for future deals. Right now the Ricketts are known for frugality.

Boobaby1 · Nov 29, 2014

DewsSox79 said:
150 million. and year 1 with him is a wash since they arent ready, than you have to worry about injury and backend of the deal. you are paying for potential 2-3 year run if all works out. not worth it.

Sent from My 1998 Palm Pilot Using Tapatalk

Question is, with Lester and a couple more acquisitions we know nothing about, can the Cubs be above .500? Then, can the prospects turn it up a little like Alcantara and Baez for starters? If they can improve their numbers, 2015 might not be a total wash and then their is still the trade deadline.

Odds against it? Right now, yes. But the unknown is still out there, so one cannot say right now with any certainty that a Lester acquisition is not worth it, and like CSF said, it may mean more for landing others than anything and the commitment to spending and winning that also would exist.

I know we as fans (most) are disappointed when they don't acquire players, and I can only imagine that current members feel probably stronger as their desire is to win. So any help from management changes attitude IMO.

We saw what happened to Shark when they dismantled the pitching staff, so I can only assume that it would have the reverse effect if they acquired certain players.

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