Cubs pitcher to hit 8th in the order this year .......

Bear Pride · Feb 21, 2015

Cubs notes: Some pitchers will bat eighth

By Jesse Rogers
ESPNChicago.com

MESA, Ari. -- Expect some pitchers to bat eighth instead of ninth for the Chicago Cubs this season, but the determining factor isn’t how that pitcher fares in the batter’s box, according to manager Joe Maddon.

“If you have a pitcher that you believe is going to go deep into the game you normally want him ninth to delay the decision to pinch hit for him,” Maddon said Saturday at spring training. “If you have a pitcher that has a history of going five, possibly six innings, you may want to hit him eighth, possibly to pinch hit for him sooner rather than later.”

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Maddon is gonna try this this year. It's kind of interesting, imo. I guess he talked to LaRussa about this. :dunno:

If Maddon does decide to go ahead and bat his pitcher eighth, he certainly won’t be the first manager to have done so. Former Cardinals manager Tony La Russa was a known proponent of the strategy.

brett05 · Feb 21, 2015

I thought I recall this being shown as a losing strategy

Chief Walking Stick · Feb 21, 2015

brett05 said:
I thought I recall this being shown as a losing strategy

Don't you dare tell that to Tony LaRussa.

CSF77 · Feb 21, 2015

just have Travis Wood DH every day and call it even. He is a pitcher right?

Chief Walking Stick · Feb 21, 2015

CSF77 said:
just have Travis Wood DH every day and call it even. He is a pitcher right?

Bring back Zambrano to DH during interleague games.

Shawon0Meter · Feb 21, 2015

Seems like overthinking things to me but alright

2323 · Feb 21, 2015

I like this in certain situations. If you have one really good hitter, he typically bats 3rd, you can make the 9 spot into a second lead off hitter and then your 3 hitter becomes the clean up hitter for 3 of his 4 at bats. And in this scenario, I'd also like to put a decent on base % guy at 7 since the pitcher is best used as a bunter.

ijustposthere · Feb 22, 2015

2323 said:
I like this in certain situations. If you have one really good hitter, he typically bats 3rd, you can make the 9 spot into a second lead off hitter and then your 3 hitter becomes the clean up hitter for 3 of his 4 at bats. And in this scenario, I'd also like to put a decent on base % guy at 7 since the pitcher is best used as a bunter.

I think you're overlooking the fact that the number 9 hitter probably won't lead off an inning 3 times a game.

SilenceS · Feb 22, 2015

Depends, if they can handle the bat and Im not just talking hitting. I am talking bunting and things like that. I have no issue with a pitcher batting 8th. It makes sense a good number of times. Batting a Matt Garza 8th is disaster because he couldnt hit a beachball or bunt a beachball. I wouldnt mind and Alcantara batting 9th with speed followed by Fowler. Thats how you can jump start an inning. I will go back to all sports analogy, "You are a genius if it works. You are dog if it fails."

CSF77 · Feb 22, 2015

1. Fowler CF S/H (.360 OBA)
2. Coghlan LF LH (.350 OBA)
3. Rizzo 1B LH (.390 OBA)
4. Castro SS RH (.340 OBA)
5. Montenero C LH (.340 OBA)
6. Soler RF RH (.360 OBA)
7. Baez 2B RH (.300 OBA)
8. Pitcher (varies but expect a .220 OBA)
9. Alcantara 3B S/H (.310 OBA)

Could work but when Bryant promotes to 3B the middle of the line up will be over loaded with RH power hitters and getting a LH bat to split them up means more than more AB's for a auto out.

I honestly don't see the point. Having a hitter bat 9th works if you have a hitter like Pujos and want to over load OBA ahead of him and have him hitting #3. Cubs should have more than 1 guy to lean on. Not to mention their best OBA guy is Rizzo and he will be a RBI for lower in the order.

I don't see the point of adding AB's to a .200 OBA spot.

Boobaby1 · Feb 22, 2015

CSF77 said:
1. Fowler CF S/H (.360 OBA)
2. Coghlan LF LH (.350 OBA)
3. Rizzo 1B LH (.390 OBA)
4. Castro SS RH (.340 OBA)
5. Montenero C LH (.340 OBA)
6. Soler RF RH (.360 OBA)
7. Baez 2B RH (.300 OBA)
8. Pitcher (varies but expect a .220 OBA)
9. Alcantara 3B S/H (.310 OBA)

Could work but when Bryant promotes to 3B the middle of the line up will be over loaded with RH power hitters and getting a LH bat to split them up means more than more AB's for a auto out.

I honestly don't see the point. Having a hitter bat 9th works if you have a hitter like Pujos and want to over load OBA ahead of him and have him hitting #3. Cubs should have more than 1 guy to lean on. Not to mention their best OBA guy is Rizzo and he will be a RBI for lower in the order.

I don't see the point of adding AB's to a .200 OBA spot.

I think it is merely the point of having speed in front of the power hitters, without limiting some of the power hitters AB's. If they had Alcantara and Fowler at the top of the line-up Rizzo, Soler, and Bryant probably get 25-30 less chances per year to drive in runs It may not sound like much, but those are the run producers you need when basically, more often than not, the pitcher is killing an inning because they are close to an automatic out.

I have no problems where the pitcher is in the line-up as long as the Cubs are doing good things around them.

CSF77 · Feb 22, 2015

Boobaby1 said:
I think it is merely the point of having speed in front of the power hitters, without limiting some of the power hitters AB's. If they had Alcantara and Fowler at the top of the line-up Rizzo, Soler, and Bryant probably get 25-30 less chances per year to drive in runs It may not sound like much, but those are the run producers you need when basically, more often than not, the pitcher is killing an inning because they are close to an automatic out.

I have no problems where the pitcher is in the line-up as long as the Cubs are doing good things around them.

I see the angle but in reality in week 3 we are looking at Bryant at 3B and Alcantara on the bench.

So with this theory:

Fowler
Coghlan
Rizzo
Bryant
Castro
Montenero
Soler
Pitcher
Baez

It doesn't work IMO. Baez's .300 OBA hitting #9?

What I would do:

Trade Baez after he proves to be able to handle major league pitching. Promote Bryant and move Alcantara back to 2B. Later year see if Schwarber is a LF or a catcher. If a LF rush job to MLB catcher than use Castro to get a legit LH (SH) LF with power.

The team needs more balance in LH/RH hitting with OBA getting more AB's. If Alcantara can get his OBA up in the .340+ area he makes a strong #2 hitter behind Fowler.

Just my opinion. With Russell promoting this year it opens up for trades to make the line up pretty balanced.

I'm not a fan of that many RH sluggers. That plan was exploited in 2008. Need a balanced attack.

CSF77 · Feb 22, 2015

What I would like to see in 2016:
1: Fowler (Extended) CF
2: Alcantara 2B
3. Rizzo 1B
4. Bryant 3B
5. Schwarber LF (doubt he will need a platoon)
6. Soler RF
7. Russell SS
8. Montenero C (pitch framing will pay off more and the line up should produce in theory)

Castro and Baez used in trades to add rotation pieces.

Now Baez may blow up this year and that still works if they retain. But I would look at his OBA vs his HR's when looking at it. HR's are sexy but OBA shows the bigger picture. Are you a out 70% or 65% or 60% of the time? That translates to potential runs.

Boobaby1 · Feb 22, 2015

CSF77 said:
What I would like to see in 2016:
1: Fowler (Extended) CF
2: Alcantara 2B
3. Rizzo 1B
4. Bryant 3B
5. Schwarber LF (doubt he will need a platoon)
6. Soler RF
7. Russell SS
8. Montenero C (pitch framing will pay off more and the line up should produce in theory)

Castro and Baez used in trades to add rotation pieces.

Now Baez may blow up this year and that still works if they retain. But I would look at his OBA vs his HR's when looking at it. HR's are sexy but OBA shows the bigger picture. Are you a out 70% or 65% or 60% of the time? That translates to potential runs.

I think inevitably that they will deal Baez, and I am not for certain that a move of sending him back down might not be a good way for him to hone his skills (at least in appearance) and then trade him as a way to elevate his stock.

If you an OBP guy batting 9th, their is nothing wrong with either Alcantara or LaStella.

chibears55 · Feb 22, 2015

Lol... I bet we see it happen, if it happens maybe a handful of times....

Bear Pride · Feb 22, 2015

CSF77 said:
I see the angle but in reality in week 3 we are looking at Bryant at 3B and Alcantara on the bench.

So with this theory:

Fowler
Coghlan
Rizzo
Bryant
Castro
Montenero
Soler
Pitcher
Baez

It doesn't work IMO. Baez's .300 OBA hitting #9?

Keep in mind that the main reason for doing this, according to Maddon, was to pinch hit for pitchers not expected to pitch long innings. Using your example from above with Baez batting 9th, many times, Maddon will be looking to pinch hit for the pitcher the 2nd at bat.

Using this example, Mendy could be the pinch hitter with a decent OBP getting on before power hitting Baez. This keeps the pitcher with 1 at bat, and gives Baez a shot at a 2 run HR, with the top of the order coming up.

If things go perfectly, this could give the Cubs the lead going into mid innings with the Cubs backend rotation looking to close the game out. If Maddon plays his substitutions right, he could limit the pitcher to 1 or 2 at bats in the game, again, in a perfect scenario. :dunno:

2323 · Feb 22, 2015

ijustposthere said:
I think you're overlooking the fact that the number 9 hitter probably won't lead off an inning 3 times a game.

I'm not overlooking that. Your best hitters are at the top of the lineup--typically. Or at least the best guys at getting on base. So if the 9 hitter gets on with 2 outs, each successive hitter has a better chance of moving him and or extending he inning.

Let's llook at some of the options starting with the 7th hitter leading off an inning:

7. Out
8. Out
9. Out--actual lead off hitter leads off the next inning.

7. Out
8. Out
9. 1B, steal
1. RBi spot if steal is successful, if not, leads off inning.

7. Out
8. 1b
9. Bunt
1. RBI spot

7. 1B
8. bunt
9. RBI spot
1. RBI spot depending on what happens with 9

There are other permutations but I like the flexibility and the way it sets up the top of the line up when it rolls around by moving the pitcher away from the top of the order. Yeah, it's a lot of playing for one run but it's the bottom of the order.

2323 · Feb 22, 2015

SilenceS said:
Depends, if they can handle the bat and Im not just talking hitting. I am talking bunting and things like that. I have no issue with a pitcher batting 8th. It makes sense a good number of times. Batting a Matt Garza 8th is disaster because he couldnt hit a beachball or bunt a beachball. I wouldnt mind and Alcantara batting 9th with speed followed by Fowler. Thats how you can jump start an inning. I will go back to all sports analogy, "You are a genius if it works. You are dog if it fails."

This is true. The pitcher really needs to be able to bunt. That's the benefit of putting him there and further away from the top of the order.

Icculus · Feb 22, 2015

Once the commissioner puts the DH in the NL, this consideration will be unnecessary.

2323 · Feb 22, 2015

DHs cost more money.

Cubs pitcher to hit 8th in the order this year .......

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