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He use to do that all the time with the bench mob... maybe he just doesn't like his new bench players...
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The Hawk
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I totally reject the notion that Deng and Rose and anyone else who suffers ankle or knee injuries do it because of playing too many minutes. Not when many of these injuries happen when a player lands on another players foot, gets hit while being in the air and landing wrong. That is just a stupid argument for a player injury. A well rested player coming off of the bench gets hurt all of the time. It has not a thing to do with playing time.
The Hawk
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Oh bullshit. How can you say that they started with this deepest roster in the NBA? Certainly not in the back-court they didn't. Are you going to blame Rose and Butlers injury on Thibs? Did you see that pick that Jordan set? Was Thibs at fault for Rose getting hurt again? Mintues played? When you play too many minutes you get tired and look shitty. That hasn't happened. Butler didn;t get hurt by being tired. Neither did Rose. Neither did Gibson. The problem with the Bulls has nothing to do with Thibs over-playing his starters just for the sake of playing them. He wants to win games and when he looked at the bench that Gar/Pax gave him he didn't have a lot of options. It had nothing to do with anything other than lack of talent on the bench.
Bear Pride
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Exactly! Thib's is to damn scripted sometimes. It's too predictable to go 5 in/out like you say. And I hate using the same closing lineup every game!!! This is an advantage for other teams, as they can gameplan. With a deep roster, it should allow you to use different lineups based on matchup.
A coach should also be able to use players that are hot and playing well at the end of games. I also think he should sub guys so there's not 5 starters... and then 5 bench guys. You are right, Thib's should mix in some bench guys here and there with the starters.
This has been one of my points with McD. If Doug got a chance with Rose, I think Rose would find McD in favorable shooting spots. That's just one example tho. It's all about adjustments. I'd like to continue to see lineups that we don't expect to throw the other teams off a little. Mostly, to keep the guys fresh.
It's kinda like the Eagles high paced offense in the NFL, teams have a hard time keeping up. I'd like to see regular subs, and players play with a lot of effort that way, instead of Thib's just expecting the players to all of a sudden turn it on.
Bear Pride
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I question if you played much to be honest. I'm not blaming any particular injury on anything, but when you get tired, your legs get heavy. Period. You react one step slower, and you stress out the body more. It's stupid to say there's absolutely no correlation at all.
You see it all the time with teams that go deep several years in a row. Eventually, your body wears down. Rookies hit the rookie wall EVERY season. It's gets worse as you get older too. Why do you think coaches rest veterans? Stupid comment, imo.
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Why didn't the Showtime Lakers all die then? The Lakers made 9 Finals in 12 years including 4 in row once, then 1 year off where they lost in the WCF then another 3 in a row.... The only had one season that they fell off the wagon due to injuries and that was 1989 which didn't happen until the Finals.
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Not that I'm defending the existing arguments in place. McKinney's scheme was finesse based. If you look at the NBA, finesse teams can take the minutes better than grinders. And of course, you need the right players to succeed with a finesse based team. When your team has two of the best finesse players of all-time, then you wind up in contention.
Bear Pride
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OK, there's one example that's different. Big deal. Nobody said anything was constant, except for Hawk. To say that injuries don't happen from being tired and overworked is absurd. That's all I said. It doesn't mean that it happens all the time. When your tired, you play on your heels more, that's when injuries can happen more. You disagree with this? :dunno:
Like Crys says, it depends on style of play as well. Look at Seattle in the NFL. They play a very physical defensive game, and they kind of broke down due to injuries after playing a long season or two. If you look at the Bulls, they've played a high energy defensive type of game, and physical for them, for 5 years now.
As far as Deng, he was Thib's #1 defense and minute guy for years, and he almost died. There's a pretty good chance these things are related. Maybe not. But that's where you start to look at it as a whole. If a team is injured all the time, maybe you should look at the everyday procedures.
Is it a coincidence that Bulls players that have been fighting injuries in Noah, Kirk, Butler, Deng, and Taj, are all high energy defensive players? Dunno, but it makes you think. I do know one thing for sure, injuries are not all just freak things like Hawk said, and again, that was my point.
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These guys are playing 48minutes a night. It's not like they are building an ancient pyramid by working 15 hour days in harsh conditions. Nothing they do in game from strictly having too much playing time, would promise you any difference in injury from playing a 54minute OT game, or playing 25 minutes off the bench. The odds are still withing reason to be the same. I used to train 3-8 hours every day at an elite level when I was in the service, and these guys don't train anywhere near as much(I know, pro-athletes have told us).
Injuries happen because a person makes a big mechanical mistake, or ignore their symptoms(sometimes symptoms go undetected as well making it an information problem). They don't happen because they play 42 minutes of basketball, opposed to playing 38 minutes. That's just absurd. Especially when this is their craft, this is what they work on, train on, and do every day.
Injuries happen because a person makes a big mechanical mistake, or ignore their symptoms(sometimes symptoms go undetected as well making it an information problem). They don't happen because they play 42 minutes of basketball, opposed to playing 38 minutes. That's just absurd. Especially when this is their craft, this is what they work on, train on, and do every day.
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I just want to point out these names bunched together. Look at each case. Then you realize that it is a coincidence. Just like a coincidence that many players that dawn the cover of their major league video game get hurt... unless you believe in voodoo. Do they get hurt because they get a photograph placed on a box? Makes you think.
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While I agree with Cry's point to an extent, there is also the Boston Celtics (5 Finals in the 80's including 4 in a row at one point), and the Detroit Pistons (3 Finals in a row, 5 ECF appearances) and then our own Bulls with 6 Finals in 8 years). Those 3 teams played grueling defense and injuries only came about when the players got old.
And even this past decade... the Detroit Pistons made 6 straight ECF's and 2 Finals.
Can injuries happen from being tired and overworked? Yes...But for example, the last year of Boston's run Bird played 40.6 mpg, McHale 39.7, Parish 37.4, Dennis Johnson 37.1, Ainge 35.2... Our starters this year are playing Butler 38.9, Gasol 34.8, Rose 31.0, Noah 31.0, Dunleavy 28.7... the Bulls bench players have way more minutes than the Celtics bench players that year... That mostly a constant through the years oto.. The 85-86 Celtics started played less minutes (they blew out a lot of opponents) and in previous years they had a better bench than that last team. So I don't believe anything injuries are a result of minutes played. If Thibs runs his closed doors practice sessions like its Game 7 of the NBA Finals, then I think you may have a point.. Richard Hamilton as a source for that won't work though to convince anyone.
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As Cry said look at the players...
Noah has had injuries since before Thibs even got here... Deng has too. Taj is an older player to begin with. I wouldn't say Butler has really had injuries until this season and they're from trying to steal a ball and jamming thus spraining his finger and running into a hard screen. NOTHING THIBS DID THERE.
Kirk is old, old people are injured all the time.
The Hawk
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The bench mob had a good mix of talent and experience, especially when they had Asik and a young Gibson. Hell, that group reminded me of the junk yard dogs that the Jordan Bulls had when they wanted to get after an opponent defensively.
The Hawk
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Blow it out your ass. You are accusing Thibs of causing these injuries to his players. Injuries which force them to miss many games and in Rose's case, complete season(s). And you attribute that to fatigues. When players get tired they do not jump as high, run as fast, defend as hard. In other words, they SLOW DOWN. Your body tells you what it is willing to do for you. Ankle and knee injuries happen typically when a player lands wrong or pushes off wrong or slips on another players foot or wet spot on the floor. Momentum gong one way and the body part pointed the other way.
You are confusing fatique with injuries. Certainly players wear out when their bodies play more and more minutes but that translates to muscle soreness, not tearing a meniscus or an achilles tendon. Those injuries typically happen when a player is not fatigued but encounters a physically stressful event that his muscles aren't anticipating.
As for your lame insult about "not playing much", what does that have to do with anything for starters? But further, I played enough to earn three letters in baseball, two in basketball, and a couple of others while in HS and played four years of college baseball. Also coached many years in baseball. I am sure that doesn't measure up to your illustrious career in any way but I have seen and experienced my own share of physical injuries including service related ones.
The Hawk
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Your "point" is all over the damn place. You attribute a MCL tear to fatigue? You attribute an elbow injury to fatigue? You attribute an achilles tear to fatigue? PROVE IT. The truth is that more sports injuries occur when muscles are not properly warmed up. A player coming into the game after sitting on th sidelines and doesn't stretch properly is way way more often injured than a guy who is currently on the field and stretched out. I could write a book about pitchers and why and how they get hurt.
There is no question that muscle injuries can be caused by over-using muscles or fatigue but not so many joint injuries are caused by it. The body naturally rebuilds muscles but it cannot rebouild a tendon that gets snapped or a ligament that gets torn. Those injuries typically happens when the limb gets put into a position or has a force exerted against it that it was not built to sustain against. Like a foot landing on another foot when it comes down to the ground after coming down with a rebound and tearing a ligament.
The Hawk
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We get it. Thibs is a horse shit coach. He puts out a terrible team at the end of games. He should mix and match terrible players with his starters more. He hates McDermott. H e doesn't use the "hot" players. It is a disadvantage to put in the same team all of the time at the last minutes of the game. With our "deep roster", his line-ups are too scripted? Personally that one is my favorite
ANything that I missed?
Noshayah DaMuzikbox
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Aw man? Don't say that! I don't want to see any more injuries! By Thibs losing Gibson, Rose, and Butler to injuries, I believe the organization has him on notice about the rotations, and him playing other players who are talented as well. His old-school style is wearing down on not just the players, but the Front Office! At the end of the day, a Championship is the goal, but Thibs must adjust. Doug McDermott is a sharpshooter, and because he's not getting some of Dunleavy's minutes, his development is being impeded. I truly hope Thibs does adjust...
The Hawk
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GREAT POST!!!!! I just read a post in which a guy claimed that Thibs almost killed Deng by playing him so many minutes. Last that I heard, Deng is still a producing starter in the NBA and is still in great physical shape. THibs didn't kill Deng. Deng didn't ask to be taken out. Deng was/is a warrior whose great physical shape enabled him to be a very good NBA player for so long. Proper nutrition and hydration when coupled with hard physical training and/or work result in athletic success. Rest is important as part of it but the human body really is a machine which needs to be fed and exercized regularly.
