Jonathan Allen vs Solomon Thomas

We had the Adams vs Hooker debate but what about the two premier DL after Garrett in this draft?

Jonathan Allen at 6'3, 286lbs (33 5/8' arms) has average size for your typical 3-4 DE. His combine numbers certainly will not blow you away. If your looking at him purely from a physical standpoint, you may wonder why is this guy getting so much attention. That is until you pop in the tape...

Allen has a quick get off and immediately wins battles with his hands with a variety of moves. While not an explosive, quick twitch player, Allen looks smooth and coordinated with his movements. He can set up his blocker with quick, coordinated feet and then finish with strong, precise hand technique. He diagnoses plays well and is able to stack and shed blockers very well in the run game. Very good instincts and high football IQ he always seems to be in the right spot to make the play. Had 22.5 sacks in two years. Was the best player on the best defense in the nation.

How does he fit? The Bears could plug him in at DE right away and he would make a considerable impact right away in nickel packages where he gets to rush inside and get to the QB. Would thrive next to big guys like Goldman and Hicks. I think we could see him causing havoc on stunts with Floyd as well, like we saw Aldon Smith and Justin Smith do in SF.

Solomon Thomas is the definition of a tweener. At 6'3, 273lbs (33' arms), Thomas is very small for an interior lineman. His combine numbers show that he is the complete opposite of Allen. Thomas is a twitched up, explosive, physical specimen.

Now some of will you will counter my interior lineman remark with the fact that people see him as an edge rusher. I personally think that if you make this guy a pure edge rusher, you are going to be wasting his ability and not playing to his strengths. When I watch Thomas rush from the outside (and he didn't do it a lot at all) he just doesn't look as effective in space. I don't think he is a natural edge bender nor is he really a smooth athlete. Thomas is more of your "bull in a china shop" than your "dancing bear".

Thomas is most effective coming downhill, using his crazy quick get-off to shoot gaps and get into the backfield. He can be downright scary and disruptive at times and almost completely took over that game against UNC.

How does he fit? This is where it's hard to find a spot for Thomas. You will need to be creative with how you use him. I think you would have to plug him in as an OLB in your base 3-4 front on early downs and then move him inside in nickel packages where he can shoot gaps to and get to the QB.

I think that because of the fit, Jonathan Allen is a better player for the Bears but I would have faith in Fangio's ability to utilise Thomas if they decided to go in that direction.

Give me the Dancing Bear over the Bull in a China Shop.

Thomas isn't a tweener he is an OLB or DE.

His testing numbers were identical to Justin Houston.

WindyCity said:

Thomas isn't a tweener he is an OLB or DE.

His testing numbers were identical to Justin Houston.

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He is a tweener because he is a better fit as an interior defensive lineman than an edge rusher. You can probably count on one hand the amount of times that Thomas rushed from the outside in each game.

Just because guys are of similar size and testing, doesn't mean they are a similar player. Houston played as a LB at Georgia.

If you play Thomas strictly as an edge guy, you are going to be disappointed in the results he puts out.

Solomon Thomas had 12 sacks in a two season resume and was a consensus late first early second round talent before the UNC game. Then after having one great game in front of a national audience, though unblocked in his game ending sack, he shot up to top 15, then a couple weeks later to top 10, then with Allen's arthritis news, became the de facto #2/#3 selection since he was the next defensive lineman to come to people's minds, magically shooting past Malik McDowell, Derek Barnett, and Taco Charlton.

Pace can't go wrong at #3. Unless he picks Solomon Thomas.

What is the status of Allens injuries? I've cooled on him since hearing about those. Will those injuries not shorten his career?

laputan said:

Solomon Thomas had 12 sacks in a two season resume and was a consensus late first early second round talent before the UNC game. Then after having one great game in front of a national audience, though unblocked in his game ending sack, he shot up to top 15, then a couple weeks later to top 10, then with Allen's arthritis news, became the de factor #2/#3 selection since he was the next defensive lineman to come to people's minds, magically shooting past Malik McDowell, Derek Barnett, and Taco Charlton.

Pace can't go wrong at #3. Unless he picks Solomon Thomas.

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Thomas was unblocked because he beat the down block by the tackle because he got off the ball so fast. You can put an asterisk next to plays a LB or DB make coming unblocked. Or maybe even a DE comes unblocked on a backside play or a read option. But there is literally no play in any football playbook where and interior lineman is supposed to be unblocked. If an interior lineman doesn't get blocked it's because he absolutely dominated the OL.

Excellent thread which needs to be discussed as these two are in serious play at #3. I agree with your assessment of Allen over Thomas but would have faith in Fangio if they end up selecting him.

HawkBear said:

What is the status of Allens injuries? I've cooled on him since hearing about those. Will those injuries not shorten his career?

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according to what we have seen his arthritis is not supposed to affect hm for around 15 years....

Good OP. And it's a pretty good debate to have.

I think the players are very close. Allen didn't test as well as I thought he would, especially at 283lbs. So that's kind of a red flag to me a little bit. Doesn't match what I saw on tape. If he did that at 293, then that's a different story, but he looked like he slimmed down to post mediocre athletic numbers. That being said, sometimes the testing numbers mean jack shit. A couple years ago, I would be completely turned off by Allen's testing numbers and his shoulder issue. But there's something to be said about a guy who simply shows it on the field. That's what this is all about. Can this dude make plays on the field? I don't care if he runs a 5.0 or can't jump if he puts up double digit sacks and is the best defensive lineman in the country while on the field of play. That's exactly what Allen was in college.

Allen does have a true position at 5-tech. He played some of that at Alabama, while also playing some 4-3 DE and some 3-technique. He played them all well, and his ability to play those fit very well with the Bears defensive scheme.

Thomas on the other hand isn't quite the opposite, but he's a guy that elevated his prospects with a strong athletic showing after not putting up good, not dominant, stats for the first 11 games. People call Thomas a tweener, but 6-3, 273 lbs is the EXACT listed size as Pernell McPhee. I think Thomas can be used exactly the way that the Ravens used McPhee and I'd hope the Bears would. He's an OLB in the base defense. He has the ability to anchor the line on the edge and immensely help the run game on run downs. In the nickel, you can put his hand in the dirt on the edge or you can put him inside next to a much larger Hicks/Goldman where you know he'll get single blocked and let him get after the passer with speed off the edges. I think the Bears haven't really used McPhee like that because A) they didn't have much help on the edge his 1st year here and B) because they didn't want to risk injury on the interior last year. But even if Solomon doesn't "start" in the base D. The Bears ran nickel about 64% of the time and he can definitely be on the field at least that much.

Some see tweener. I see versatile player. And I'm sure that's what Pace/Fangio will see if they evaluate him highly. I'm on record of saying I didn't have Thomas as a top 10 talent, but I'm changing my tune on that. Athletically, he showed me a lot and while 1 game doesn't make a player great, he definitely showed the potential to dominate. I think if the Bears had the choice of these two players at 6-10, then maybe you go with the safer pick in Allen. But in the top 3-5, I think the Bears go with the athletic upside and versatility like Pace did with White and Floyd the last 2 years. And I can't blame them.

both polar and dawgs analysis seem spot on to me. All things being equal, SF just might end up taking JA although they have that Bay area tie with ST.

btw dawg, did you read that JA article from Steve White which I posted. Loved his comp to being as stoked about JA as he was Donald tho different players.

Luke said:

btw dawg, did you read that JA article from Steve Wright which I posted. Loved his comp to being as stoked about JA as he was Donald tho different players.

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Going to read that now.

Jonathan Allen's Alabama defense will also have 6-7 guys getting drafted next month. Im more interested in Reuben Foster an Tim Williams. You cant block everyone.

rawdawg said:

Thomas was unblocked because he beat the down block by the tackle because he got off the ball so fast. You can put an asterisk next to plays a LB or DB make coming unblocked. Or maybe even a DE comes unblocked on a backside play or a read option. But there is literally no play in any football playbook where and interior lineman is supposed to be unblocked. If an interior lineman doesn't get blocked it's because he absolutely dominated the OL.

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He was unblocked. Thomas was flagged offsides 7 times in 2016. He likes to get a head start and on this play he timed it correctly.

If Pace selects Allen at 3 I'm gonna jump off the couch and air hump until my lower back gives way. He's a man-child that can whoop your ass with power or technique. If he were an inch or two taller he'd be unanimously discussed as a potential pick at 3.

laputan said:

He was unblocked. Thomas was flagged offsides 7 times in 2016. He likes to get a head start and on this play he timed it correctly.

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But he wasn't offside on that play. The lineman has to be quicker. He actually knew the snap count. I'm 150% sure the OL was told that Thomas likes to jump snap counts. The most critical play in the game, he go blown by.....like the OL did most of the game. How is that a knock on Thomas? He's doing his job.

PolarBear said:

He is a tweener because he is a better fit as an interior defensive lineman than an edge rusher. You can probably count on one hand the amount of times that Thomas rushed from the outside in each game.

Just because guys are of similar size and testing, doesn't mean they are a similar player. Houston played as a LB at Georgia.

If you play Thomas strictly as an edge guy, you are going to be disappointed in the results he puts out.

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Just because a guy wasn't asked to do something in college does not mean that he cannot.

What athletic ability of skill does Thomas lack to be asked to rush off the edge?


Stanford was focused on winning games not making sure Thomas showed off everything he can do.

rawdawg said:

But he wasn't offside on that play. The lineman has to be quicker. He actually knew the snap count. I'm 150% sure the OL was told that Thomas likes to jump snap counts. The most critical play in the game, he go blown by.....like the OL did most of the game. How is that a knock on Thomas? He's doing his job.

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Yeah, great job. He's just clearly getting overrated since that game. Doubt he's anywhere near as successful in the NFL, not that he had that impressive a college career to begin with.

WindyCity said:

Just because a guy wasn't asked to do something in college does not mean that he cannot.

What athletic ability of skill does Thomas lack to be asked to rush off the edge?


Stanford was focused on winning games not making sure Thomas showed off everything he can do.

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Yep. And like I said, same size as McPhee. You can eye-test and see that he's definitely more athletic/agile than McPhee. Maybe a little stiffer, but if Pernell can play edge.....

And besides, if Thomas is as good of a player as most think.....then he can't be a tweener. If Vic Fangio can't figure out a way to get a player like him to shine....maybe Fangio isn't as good of a DC as we all think he is.

laputan said:

Solomon Thomas had 12 sacks in a two season resume and was a consensus late first early second round talent before the UNC game. Then after having one great game in front of a national audience, though unblocked in his game ending sack, he shot up to top 15, then a couple weeks later to top 10, then with Allen's arthritis news, became the de facto #2/#3 selection since he was the next defensive lineman to come to people's minds, magically shooting past Malik McDowell, Derek Barnett, and Taco Charlton.

Pace can't go wrong at #3. Unless he picks Solomon Thomas.

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Yes, the draft experts had Thomas pegged for middle to bottom first round based off of his tape. Then the rumors started circulating about Thomas's athleticism. There was video posted of Thomas running a lightning quick 20 yard shuttle. Some people started saying he could possibly post Von Miller type numbers at the combine. The draft guys had to reassess and raise his ceiling, vaulting him into the top 3. I'll admit his tape is not breathtaking, but his projection is based on what he could do in the NFL. Whereas Jonathan Allen is a what you see is what you get type player.

http://www.chicitysports.com/forum/showthread.php/85321-Solomon-Thomas-Is-Going-Top-5