IST: Cubs @ Brewers

beckdawg said:

The problem is who had more to give? Like in theory I get what you're saying and Sale probably is worth more but to pay what Sale is worth you have to gut your team and therefore you aren't competitive which sort of defeats the point. The sox effectively ended up with two top 15 ish prospects for him. Most teams don't have one top 15 prospect let alone two. So it's really hard to do better.

That's why I've always suggested that there's an upper limit on players even if they are worth "more." For example, I doubt Mike Trout were he to be traded gets much more than the sox got for Sale despite him easily being the most valuable baseball player. Players at that sort of value level are either never dealt because they are so valuable or are dealt for below what they are worth.

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I put Kris Bryant in that area code as well.

fatbeard said:

Hindsight is in play here, but with the season Sale just had do you think the Sox should've gotten a guaranteed young cornerstone, like an Addison Russell, in return? I was looking back this morning and couldn't shake the feeling that Hahn should've pushed for more than prospects.

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Yoan is a better spec than Addison and is that guaranteed cornerstone IMO. Same with Kopech. His issue was his control which right now appears under control. Still too early to call it for the White Sox. It's easily the Red Sox is they win a Championship.

But yes, I was hoping Devers would have been dealt to us.

beckdawg said:

The problem is who had more to give? Like in theory I get what you're saying and Sale probably is worth more but to pay what Sale is worth you have to gut your team and therefore you aren't competitive which sort of defeats the point. The sox effectively ended up with two top 15 ish prospects for him. Most teams don't have one top 15 prospect let alone two. So it's really hard to do better.

That's why I've always suggested that there's an upper limit on players even if they are worth "more." For example, I doubt Mike Trout were he to be traded gets much more than the sox got for Sale despite him easily being the most valuable baseball player. Players at that sort of value level are either never dealt because they are so valuable or are dealt for below what they are worth.

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I think he was talking an established player off the 25, not another prospect.

beckdawg said:

The problem is who had more to give? Like in theory I get what you're saying and Sale probably is worth more but to pay what Sale is worth you have to gut your team and therefore you aren't competitive which sort of defeats the point. The sox effectively ended up with two top 15 ish prospects for him. Most teams don't have one top 15 prospect let alone two. So it's really hard to do better.

That's why I've always suggested that there's an upper limit on players even if they are worth "more." For example, I doubt Mike Trout were he to be traded gets much more than the sox got for Sale despite him easily being the most valuable baseball player. Players at that sort of value level are either never dealt because they are so valuable or are dealt for below what they are worth.

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As brett rightly points out, a conversation over Mike Trout would have to begin with Kris Bryant, and a conversation for Chris Sale (I think) should've begun with Mookie Betts, or Bogaerts + Moncada.

Diehardfan said:

I think he was talking an established player off the 25, not another prospect.

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But my point is no team acquiring a player like Sale is gonna do that. The reason you trade for Sale is because you're trying to win a world series. Trading a valuable piece off your current MLB roster is one step forward two steps back. For example, let's say you're talking about Betts or Bogaerts. Right now they are worth 5 fWAR and 2.6 fWAR respectively. Sale has been worth 8.2 So while true you're improving in both cases, you then have to look at the alternative. Who do you plug in at SS if you deal Bogaerts? The sox don't have that answer as such they aren't dealing him. With Betts you can sorta shuffle some stuff around but the point here is that trading prospects costs them nothing toward 2017 and thus makes them a better team this year. They are going to win between 90-95 games this year but if you're subtracting 2-3 wins for whomever replaces Betts/Bogaerts you're a far less effective team.

That's why no team is going to trade an established player like that. So it's fine to suggest the idea in theory but in practice it's not going to happen. It's the same reason Theo and company suggested they weren't trading anyone off the cubs active roster this year in order to acquire Quintana/Verlander/whomever. Additionally, let's say the white sox drew a line in the sand on Betts/Moncada. What team in the majors matches that sort of offer? You're talking about a 5 win player and a top 5 prospect. Boston is probably the only team who can match that. Even if you lower it to Bogaerts and Moncada, there's few teams who have an all star SS and a top 5 prospect to trade.

In other words, the white sox don't have the leverage to pull that off because no one can offer more than that demand to drive up prices. What Sale is worth is irrelevant. It's what teams have to trade for him that matters because you have to have multiple teams with high level prospects/players in order to create a market. Boston isn't just going to bid against themselves and pay whatever the Sox want. We sort of saw this with Q. Houston was in talks to acquire him prior to the start of the season and the rumor then was the sox wanted Martes, Musgrove and Tucker. They ended up getting a decent return in Cease/Jiminez but they aren't as valuable as the Houston package they reportedly asked for. And ultimately in the case of Houston there was no one else offering anything near that in order to entice Houston to pay more.

I imagine the sox probably did ask for something ridiculous for Sale. I believe Theo mentioned any talks on the cubs end started with Bryant or no deal at all. So, it's not like Hahn was lowballing people here. It's just that if Boston says no to Betts what other choice do the white soxs have? They either keep Sale on a bad team and his great contract loses another year or you lower the price on him and get what you can speeding up your rebuild. Even if they held on to Sale to the trade deadline I don't think they get more and of course you risk Sale pitching poorly/getting hurt.

TL1961 said:

Holy shit, that's huge.

Holy cow.

Can we just talk about the job Wade Davis has done??

What a stud. Doesn't look intimidating, but what a stud.

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I hope they pay him.

Kris Bryant is having the quietest MVP-caliber season I can remember. Currently tied for 2nd in NL fWAR with Stanton, both .3 behind Rendon. Stanton is clearly going to win "because counting stats," but there's basically five guys right now between 6.7-6.2 fWAR who are all equally deserving. And, on the subject of "things Kris Bryant does really well that are going unnoticed," it's continues to impress me how good a baserunner he is. It's really hard for a guy who doesn't steal many bases at all to continually rank as one of the best baserunners in the league, but he does it every year.

ijustposthere said:

I hope they pay him.

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Will you hope they pay him after Joe rides him harder than he rode Chapman last postseason?

fatbeard said:

Kris Bryant is having the quietest MVP-caliber season I can remember. Currently tied for 2nd in NL fWAR with Stanton, both .3 behind Rendon. Stanton is clearly going to win "because counting stats," but there's basically five guys right now between 6.7-6.2 fWAR who are all equally deserving. And, on the subject of "things Kris Bryant does really well that are going unnoticed," it's continues to impress me how good a baserunner he is. It's really hard for a guy who doesn't steal many bases at all to continually rank as one of the best baserunners in the league, but he does it every year.

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This is so true. He accepted moving to the 2 hole, scored 100 runs, hitting .290 now, but moving to the 2 hole hurt his RBI production as well. Makes you wonder if KB would be the leadoff guy ever.

fatbeard said:

Kris Bryant is having the quietest MVP-caliber season I can remember. Currently tied for 2nd in NL fWAR with Stanton, both .3 behind Rendon. Stanton is clearly going to win "because counting stats," but there's basically five guys right now between 6.7-6.2 fWAR who are all equally deserving. And, on the subject of "things Kris Bryant does really well that are going unnoticed," it's continues to impress me how good a baserunner he is. It's really hard for a guy who doesn't steal many bases at all to continually rank as one of the best baserunners in the league, but he does it every year.

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I think it's Paul Goldscmidt this time around

fatbeard said:

Kris Bryant is having the quietest MVP-caliber season I can remember. Currently tied for 2nd in NL fWAR with Stanton, both .3 behind Rendon. Stanton is clearly going to win "because counting stats," but there's basically five guys right now between 6.7-6.2 fWAR who are all equally deserving. And, on the subject of "things Kris Bryant does really well that are going unnoticed," it's continues to impress me how good a baserunner he is. It's really hard for a guy who doesn't steal many bases at all to continually rank as one of the best baserunners in the league, but he does it every year.

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Really goes for both him and Rizzo. They are sorta LH/RH versions of each other.

anotheridiot said:

Will you hope they pay him after Joe rides him harder than he rode Chapman last postseason?

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Of course I would. Why would you not? Because he might be bad? Because he might get hurt? Why sign anyone then?

ijustposthere said:

Of course I would. Why would you not? Because he might be bad? Because he might get hurt? Why sign anyone then?

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So you would have paid Chapman that 100 million contract too? What do you think Davis will expect now that Chapman set the market after Davis has a no blown saves year?

brett05 said:

I think it's Paul Goldscmidt this time around

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He's on the outside looking in at the top tier of NL fWAR, but first basemen get dorked defensively in WAR so its hard to see exactly how it really shakes out. I could buy Goldschmidt.

anotheridiot said:

So you would have paid Chapman that 100 million contract too? What do you think Davis will expect now that Chapman set the market after Davis has a no blown saves year?

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Do you seriously think the 32 yo Davis should be paid as high as Chapman, or Jansen? The answer is no. Your name is fitting, arguing against points I never made.

anotheridiot said:

So you would have paid Chapman that 100 million contract too? What do you think Davis will expect now that Chapman set the market after Davis has a no blown saves year?

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Jinx much?

Not sure how much production their gonns get out of Zobrist Avila and Schwarber in middle of order but it looking like their gonna need a few runs today

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Jon
Jay
For 2
RBI snd Run scored

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Even up on the run saving catches now. Needed that.

Great AB by Jay
Ended wuth a single

Let get him home

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