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  1. #23
    Senior Member anotheridiot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClydeLee View Post
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    What fear dud you think Panarin made. He has 1 goal this year and Kane with the puck brought fear, Panarin isn't the only 1 time fear but putting Cat or Sharp with Kane would open that up again.

    Again they have a lot of ability to acquire later in the year on D. They need to mix up some of the bottom lines because Hino would help more than some there in the team.

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    Exactly. Panarin with Kane with the one timers is one of the hardest pucks out there. You cannot compare Panarin with nobody to what Panarin was with Kane. Kane would set him up wth 4-5 shots a night. Now he is the guy skating around like Kane does here. Did you miss the fact he has 9 assists in 12 games?

    This year Toews got Saad back. Last night they are not on the same line. Maybe next year or two Kane gets Panarin back.
    109 years since the last back to back world titles

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  3. #24
    Scratched for Vorobiev LordKOTL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RacerX View Post
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    Murphy has been a disappointment for sure.

    To me, the biggest difference in this team's ability to control puck possession and tempo is the blue line. During our Cup runs, we had the best overall top-4 defense me in the NHL. I feel like we went from #1 overall in that measurement to somewhere in the 20-25 range.

    With this brutal Cap in place, i just can't see how we can properly reload our personnel through FA and trades given our limited resources.

    I'm really not a Debby-downer type, but IMO the arrow is pointing South for the Hawks' foreseeable future.
    Not entirely true.

    2010 probably had the best overall D. They were able to carry a bad Huet and a milquetoast Niemi.

    2013 was, IMHO the top all-around team. O, D, and G were all top-5.

    2015 the O was good, the G was great, the D was porous--like bottom-10 range. Darling gets a lot of credit for the save against Nashville, but it wasn't until Darling was pulled in game 6 that ANY skater played behind the redline--not even Keith. That gets glossed over a lot. Crawford saw a ton of rubber yet still came out with a Jennings.

    Since then:
    in 2016 we had three NHL players: Kane, Panarin and Crawford. Those three dragged everyone else kicking and screaming into the playoffs.

    in 2017 Crawford regressed to his career mean, and Darling had a career season. Hossa rebounded, Keith slightly rebounded. Panarin and Kane both were great...but everyone else was kinda Meh.

    Now, our D is literally in the cellar and our O is okay. Crawford is MVP so far AINEC.

    The task right now IMHO is to keep the O up, but sparkplug the D. It's easier to plug a cattleprod up the skaters' asses and get them to look like NHL players (granted, Keith, Ani, & Toews had a good game last night), than it is to expect Crawford to continue to put up the kind of season that earns him a McJesus contract and a luxury suite in the HHoF.

    The 'hawks will be on a backslide for ahwile, but that as the point of the cap in the 1st place. Hell, we got 3 cups in the cap era--that's nore than the Blues and Canucks have since joining the league!
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  5. #25
    Senior Member anotheridiot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordKOTL View Post
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    Not entirely true.

    2010 probably had the best overall D. They were able to carry a bad Huet and a milquetoast Niemi.

    2013 was, IMHO the top all-around team. O, D, and G were all top-5.

    2015 the O was good, the G was great, the D was porous--like bottom-10 range. Darling gets a lot of credit for the save against Nashville, but it wasn't until Darling was pulled in game 6 that ANY skater played behind the redline--not even Keith. That gets glossed over a lot. Crawford saw a ton of rubber yet still came out with a Jennings.

    Since then:
    in 2016 we had three NHL players: Kane, Panarin and Crawford. Those three dragged everyone else kicking and screaming into the playoffs.

    in 2017 Crawford regressed to his career mean, and Darling had a career season. Hossa rebounded, Keith slightly rebounded. Panarin and Kane both were great...but everyone else was kinda Meh.

    Now, our D is literally in the cellar and our O is okay. Crawford is MVP so far AINEC.

    The task right now IMHO is to keep the O up, but sparkplug the D. It's easier to plug a cattleprod up the skaters' asses and get them to look like NHL players (granted, Keith, Ani, & Toews had a good game last night), than it is to expect Crawford to continue to put up the kind of season that earns him a McJesus contract and a luxury suite in the HHoF.

    The 'hawks will be on a backslide for ahwile, but that as the point of the cap in the 1st place. Hell, we got 3 cups in the cap era--that's nore than the Blues and Canucks have since joining the league!
    Cant disagree much, I just think that people consider Seabrook and Keith those same players from 6 years ago and they are both coming down to earth. Thats why I look at the reports they want more veteran Defenders and wonder when with Seabrook and Keith ever be considered to not be the best here anymore.

    I mean look at the simple shit that happens when the hawks pull the goalie. Either Rutta or Kempy are skating back to the net. You never see Seabrook or Keith going to the blue paint, they just try to block shots from 30 feet away from the net. Then the argument is, well they are pushing the puck to get back in the offensive zone. One goal means they are back even strength and the game is over.
    109 years since the last back to back world titles

  6. #26
    Scratched for Vorobiev LordKOTL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anotheridiot View Post
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    Cant disagree much, I just think that people consider Seabrook and Keith those same players from 6 years ago and they are both coming down to earth. Thats why I look at the reports they want more veteran Defenders and wonder when with Seabrook and Keith ever be considered to not be the best here anymore.

    I mean look at the simple shit that happens when the hawks pull the goalie. Either Rutta or Kempy are skating back to the net. You never see Seabrook or Keith going to the blue paint, they just try to block shots from 30 feet away from the net. Then the argument is, well they are pushing the puck to get back in the offensive zone. One goal means they are back even strength and the game is over.
    They aren't. I feel Keith's last Hurrah was the 2015 playoffs and Seabs was circa 2014. That's fine. Guys get older. Hossa was never a 40G scorer for us but even still he brought what he could based on how he was able to play.

    Hell, last 2 years Hjammer was the best defenseman in terms of raw defense.

    My point on your post was more about how we had the best overall D or close to it. We most certainly didn't in 2015. The D was bottom-10 and has gotten steadily worse in the intervening years. 2015 and on it was the goalies doing the heavy lifting in the backend--and Crawford more than anyone.
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    I'm not sure how a Jennings trophy win team is considered bottom 10 of a D.

    Yeah no 5th D of worthy made it and not even a real 6th Dman but enough mixed match ups. I had seen people more worried all that season long how they weren't scoring enough to win a cup and oh they can't win with so little 4th line offense claims more than the D is bad, because the top 4 was still the top 4 that won a cup and lost a wcf based on skill not yet declined.

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    I think that they really miss Hossa and Shaw. Both of those guys played both ways and this team misses their grit.

  9. #29
    Senior Member anotheridiot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordKOTL View Post
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    They aren't. I feel Keith's last Hurrah was the 2015 playoffs and Seabs was circa 2014. That's fine. Guys get older. Hossa was never a 40G scorer for us but even still he brought what he could based on how he was able to play.

    Hell, last 2 years Hjammer was the best defenseman in terms of raw defense.

    My point on your post was more about how we had the best overall D or close to it. We most certainly didn't in 2015. The D was bottom-10 and has gotten steadily worse in the intervening years. 2015 and on it was the goalies doing the heavy lifting in the backend--and Crawford more than anyone.
    I think most of the fans still consider them as the top 2, I was not intending to call you out or anything. My point is we have a couple winners right now in Rutta and Forsling and any additions in betteran defensemen mean those two drop to the third pair most probably and watch their minutes drop, which in my eyes, hurts their overall development.

    Right now its best for Rutta to cover keith and Forsling to cover seabrook and have two strong pairs.
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  10. #30
    Scratched for Vorobiev LordKOTL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anotheridiot View Post
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    I think most of the fans still consider them as the top 2, I was not intending to call you out or anything. My point is we have a couple winners right now in Rutta and Forsling and any additions in betteran defensemen mean those two drop to the third pair most probably and watch their minutes drop, which in my eyes, hurts their overall development.

    Right now its best for Rutta to cover keith and Forsling to cover seabrook and have two strong pairs.
    I am not disagreeing either; I am just stating what the numbers say.

    Back on topic I think Q bought himself some time with the win. We'll see, though. It's but 1 game and this should continue if he wants to stay--again, not because he's a bad coach, but just because coaches are hired to be fired.
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  11. #31
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    I thought we were still on topic. Q chooses betterans unless he is given no choice, and Bowmans keep giving him veterans. That has always been the case. We have wingels and Bouma, sharp back while vinnie skates in rockford. Aren't choosing the lines and pairs part of the coaches responsibility and part of why he gets hired or fired?

    I have no clue why they moved Panarin other than apparently they could not lock in a cost effective move with his agent so he got shipped away instead of keeping him while he was relatively cheap.
    109 years since the last back to back world titles

  12. #32
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    Bring back Savard for coach!
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClydeLee View Post
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    I'm not sure how a Jennings trophy win team is considered bottom 10 of a D.

    Yeah no 5th D of worthy made it and not even a real 6th Dman but enough mixed match ups. I had seen people more worried all that season long how they weren't scoring enough to win a cup and oh they can't win with so little 4th line offense claims more than the D is bad, because the top 4 was still the top 4 that won a cup and lost a wcf based on skill not yet declined.

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    Comparing and contrasting the 2 Jennings years:

    Stat - 2013 - 2015

    Crawford's Sv% - .926 - .924
    SA/GP - 26.2 - 30.2
    SA/GP league ranking - 6 - 22
    GA/GP - 2.02 - 2.27
    GA/GP league ranking - 1 - 2

    Crawford/Raanta/Darling did the heavy lifting in 2015 compared to 2013--while in 2013 our team was unassailable. 2015 was the 1st year the team D took a huge step back in terms of puck possession and shot suppression. Taken as a whole our D was no longer smothering and nowhere near the 2010 "can win with anyone in net". Our goalies were being forced to step it up and a lot of people though Crawford wouldn't rise to the occasion. He not only did, but he got a Jennings for the effort.

    Also to note was the Nashville series. A lot of fans like to rag Crawford for getting pulled but lets not forget Darling's herculean effort because the team itself refused to play hockey below the redline--even Keith. By game 6, Nashville figured Darling out and we reinserted Crawford. Then and only then did the team D start to look NHL-calibre (much less Cup worthy).

    Quote Originally Posted by anotheridiot View Post
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    I thought we were still on topic. Q chooses betterans unless he is given no choice, and Bowmans keep giving him veterans. That has always been the case. We have wingels and Bouma, sharp back while vinnie skates in rockford. Aren't choosing the lines and pairs part of the coaches responsibility and part of why he gets hired or fired?

    I have no clue why they moved Panarin other than apparently they could not lock in a cost effective move with his agent so he got shipped away instead of keeping him while he was relatively cheap.
    Panarin was moved because he became as one-dimensional as Kane and Toews was becoming "Captain Intangibles" and needed someone else to augment him and Panik to be effective. The cost effective move plays into it as well, but the 'hawks got a much better player back--in fact, they got a player back who is the only one remotely close to Hossa's ability in all 3 zones on this team--at the cost of, what was then on paper, a tiny bit of O.

    The cost of both players is a wash--plus we got a goalie back who should in all rights be the next Darling in terms of a backup and possible starter.

    As for Q, Back in 2012 there was inklings of a different philosophy between Stan and Q. Maybe there still is. I don't know. But I feel the coaches job is to make up both the lineup and the game plan, and also tweak it when needed. But, at the NHL level the biggest job for a coach is managing egos. They have to get their guys to perform at a high level. Up until last game, Q was failing at that because our core players looked bored and disinterested. That is part of his job. Even if Hino would be a better option it won't make a lick of difference if Toews is playing like Arkhipov, Keith like Quint, Seabs like Oedelin, and Kane like Arnason.
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  14. #34
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    IMHO I think Q is on a short leash after last seasons sweep, if the team has a bad stretch, he gone.

    Keith was on with Kap and Eddy O yesterday and said Q stopped practice Tues. said it was horsecrap and ran the team thru bag skate.

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    He has earned the right for a few more crappy seasons. Imho.
    In the immortal words of Ziggy, " I ain't the law..."

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    Scratched for Vorobiev LordKOTL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCChiFan View Post
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    He has earned the right for a few more crappy seasons. Imho.
    In a vacuum, maybe. However bad years = less money for McDonut. It's easier to fire Q and right the ship than it is to buyout Seabrook, lets say, and right the ship. Especially since a buyout for seabs will last until 2030.

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    Well some have said Q going off on practice was too little too late yet Crow clocks in back to back shutouts

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  18. #38
    Scratched for Vorobiev LordKOTL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClydeLee View Post
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    Well some have said Q going off on practice was too little too late yet Crow clocks in back to back shutouts

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    True, but Q going off wasn't because of Crawford.

    Kane and Seabrook are still MIA. Toews and Keith responded.

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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by RacerX View Post
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    For those of you that still believe the solution lies in blending the lines, you may be delusional.

    Our D and PP are clearly subpar for a playoff team, let alone a SC contender. We don't have fixes in the current lineup, nor at the Rock, nor do we have cap space or other resources to plug our gaps.

    It's been a great run, and we still have great players to entertain us, but IMO our SC window is closed and will stay closed for several years due to our personnel contracts and lack of any top-end or elite prospects.

    I'm not mad, just a realist and recognizing the inevitable fall after 3 Cups is perfectly acceptable to me.
    Bump. Blow. It. Up.

    Then again, we can't thanks to the contracts/cap/NMCs.

    Time to make some major changes, but I don't think SB and Q get canned before end of season, 3 championships will buy some goodwill, deservedly.

    Gonna be painful to move Seabs due to all his negative contract value, we would have to throw in a Schmaltz++ and take back a lesser crap contract. Toews isn't going anywhere since he's only worth at most half of salary and he is the marketing face of the team.

    It's going to be a loooong decline only moderately tempered by the afterglow of the 3 Cups.

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