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Thread: HOF 2018 Ballot

  1. #1
    Senior Member DanTown's Avatar
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    Default HOF 2018 Ballot

    Here is the official ballot

    Barry Bonds
    Chris Carpenter
    Roger Clemens
    Johnny Damon
    Vladimir Guerrero
    Livan Hernandez
    Trevor Hoffman
    Orlando Hudson
    Aubrey Huff
    Jason Isringhausen
    Andruw Jones
    Chipper Jones
    Jeff Kent
    Carlos Lee
    Brad Lidge
    Edgar Martinez
    Hideki Matsui
    Fred McGriff
    Kevin Millwood
    Jamie Moyer
    Mike Mussina
    Manny Ramirez
    Scott Rolen
    Johan Santana
    Curt Schilling
    Gary Sheffield
    Sammy Sosa
    Jim Thome
    Omar Vizquel
    Billy Wagner
    Larry Walker
    Kerry Wood
    Carlos Zambrano

    You can choose up to 10 guys, who do you choose?

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  3. #2
    Senior Member DanTown's Avatar
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    My fake ballot would be

    Only debate is steroids but they're literal all-time greats
    1. Bonds
    2. Clemens

    Cannot argue against
    3. C. Jones
    4. A. Jones
    5. Mussina

    Close and debatable but well deserving
    6. L. Walker
    7. Rolen
    8. Thome
    9. Guerrero
    10. Martinez

    Closest nos
    Ramirez (too many positive steroid tests, not enough high WAR seasons)
    Santana (not enough innings)

    Has no real argument
    Vizquel (great defender but ONE season with a WAR above 4)
    Hoffman (28 WAR is simply not HOF worthy and if it is, I'd have guys like Santana ahead of him. No bonus for closing.)
    Damon (good WAR number but heavily inflated due to massive PA as leadoff guy; lack of top end seasons)

    Unfairly not on a ballot and thus will wait years to even have a faint hope of being in the HOF
    Kenny Lofton (68 career WAR; eight year run of 47.4 WAR in his prime; high counting numbers in terms of SB (622)).

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    This might just be the first thing this pompous ass has ever said that I agree with.

    https://www.si.com/mlb/2017/11/21/jo...-fame-steroids

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    Chipper and Messina should be locks.

    To be honest it has more to do with them lying in front of a Senate vs sticking a needle anywhere. That will haunt them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diehardfan View Post
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    This might just be the first thing this pompous ass has ever said that I agree with.
    He continues to be a hypocrite ignoring the drug use of his time.
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    Barry Bonds *Broke the rules with drugs, too bad, was a HOFer before drug use so No.
    Chris Carpenter *No
    Roger Clemens *Should be in, never found to take drugs
    Johnny Damon *Solid, but he's with Konerko on the outside looking in
    Vladimir Guerrero *100% in
    Livan Hernandez* No
    Trevor Hoffman* 100% in. Suffers because he was a Padre
    Orlando Hudson* My kids have his jersey...No
    Aubrey Huff* Awesome Twiiter, but no
    Jason Isringhausen* No
    Andruw Jones * Tough one. Played in a hitters friendly park. Does not pass the eye test for me. Konerko for me.
    Chipper Jones *Yes
    Jeff Kent *Yes, his numbers are as good or better than all other 2b men.
    Carlos Lee* No
    Brad Lidge* No
    Edgar Martinez* Konerko
    Hideki Matsui *No
    Fred McGriff* Yes, his numbers are there and he's been given credit to be all natural
    Kevin Millwood* No
    Jamie Moyer* Konerko
    Mike Mussina* Konerko
    Manny Ramirez *Multiple rule breaker with drugs, No
    Scott Rolen * Yes
    Johan Santana *Should he get the Koufax treatment? I'm on the fence.
    Curt Schilling * Yes
    Gary Sheffield * Yes, never found guilty of drugs, right?
    Sammy Sosa *Again never found guilty of drugs, YES
    Jim Thome *Yes
    Omar Vizquel *Tough one. I'm on the fence
    Billy Wagner* I said yes last year. I am still a yes
    Larry Walker * Yes, he benefitted from Coors, but played well elsewhere.
    Kerry Wood * No
    Carlos Zambrano * No

    That's 13. So since it was asked to be 10...I eliminate Sheffield, Wagner, Walker
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    Honestly the hall of fame is dead to me. The sanctimonious people who wont vote for someone because they allegedly used HGH or whatever are distasteful to me. To me it's as simple as this, did the league catch you with a failed drug test? If you were not caught then there should be no punishment with regard to the HOF because if you use the logic "well we know they were using" that can be applied to every player in the generation. There's literally no way to defend yourself as a player during this era. If you didn't fail a drug test people assume you just had better masking than they had testing.

    At the end of the day unless you were caught the stats still count. And the fact of the matter is players have been using substances to get an edge for the better part of 50 years now whether it's amphetamines, HGH or steroids. So to count out some players and totally ignore the offenses from guys before the media dug into every bit of a players life is absurd.

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    Also I find the HOF absurd that a player like Kenny Lofton probably never makes the HOF unless it's the old timers that let him in after he falls off the ballot. Guy was a career .299/.372/.423 hitter and easily one of the best defensive CF of his generation but "LOLZ DOESN'T HIT HRs" so he's not even close to making it

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    Quote Originally Posted by beckdawg View Post
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    Honestly the hall of fame is dead to me. The sanctimonious people who wont vote for someone because they allegedly used HGH or whatever are distasteful to me. To me it's as simple as this, did the league catch you with a failed drug test? If you were not caught then there should be no punishment with regard to the HOF because if you use the logic "well we know they were using" that can be applied to every player in the generation. There's literally no way to defend yourself as a player during this era. If you didn't fail a drug test people assume you just had better masking than they had testing.

    At the end of the day unless you were caught the stats still count. And the fact of the matter is players have been using substances to get an edge for the better part of 50 years now whether it's amphetamines, HGH or steroids. So to count out some players and totally ignore the offenses from guys before the media dug into every bit of a players life is absurd.
    They lost me after they waited til Ron Santo passed to vote him in

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    Quote Originally Posted by beckdawg View Post
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    Honestly the hall of fame is dead to me. The sanctimonious people who wont vote for someone because they allegedly used HGH or whatever are distasteful to me. To me it's as simple as this, did the league catch you with a failed drug test? If you were not caught then there should be no punishment with regard to the HOF because if you use the logic "well we know they were using" that can be applied to every player in the generation. There's literally no way to defend yourself as a player during this era. If you didn't fail a drug test people assume you just had better masking than they had testing.

    At the end of the day unless you were caught the stats still count. And the fact of the matter is players have been using substances to get an edge for the better part of 50 years now whether it's amphetamines, HGH or steroids. So to count out some players and totally ignore the offenses from guys before the media dug into every bit of a players life is absurd.
    I don't know that it's that simple and the recent tactic to include amphetamines, which were rampant for decades, in the whole discussion of major PED offenses is a little silly to me. That said it is an impossible problem to solve based on the current environment. To me it comes down to this; is the HoF a museum that celebrates baseball and its rich history or is it the ultimate honor for the individuals who became the greats of the sport? If it's the former then there should be no restrictions whatsoever in terms of PED use, or even rules issues like Pete Rose or Joe Jackson. If it's the latter there are way too many players in already. An ideal HoF on on only the highest of play and character standards would have about 30 players in it, certainly not 255.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TC in Mississippi View Post
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    I don't know that it's that simple and the recent tactic to include amphetamines, which were rampant for decades, in the whole discussion of major PED offenses is a little silly to me. That said it is an impossible problem to solve based on the current environment. To me it comes down to this; is the HoF a museum that celebrates baseball and its rich history or is it the ultimate honor for the individuals who became the greats of the sport? If it's the former then there should be no restrictions whatsoever in terms of PED use, or even rules issues like Pete Rose or Joe Jackson. If it's the latter there are way too many players in already. An ideal HoF on on only the highest of play and character standards would have about 30 players in it, certainly not 255.
    I don't see how amphetamines is silly. If players took them they felt it helped them. Whether or not it did and to the extent it may have shouldn't matter. It's getting an edge that you shouldn't have had. Even if it wasn't against the rules(not 100% on that), HGH wasn't in the rules until recently either. Are we disallowing any player who ever corked a bat? Are we disallowing any player caught using a foreign substance on a ball? Are we disallowing any players/teams caught stealing signs?

    Like it or not, the league never caught many of those players. If you want to note some where in the hall that players during that era did something uncouth fine. But let's not act like players in the hall of fame are all virtuous. In every era there are mean sons of bitches who would do anything to win whether you're talking about Ty Cobb or Barry Bonds. And while generally sports stars are meant to be seen as the height of sportsmanship, I think there's some dignity in a player willing to go to any means even risking their health to win. I wouldn't have taken HGH but I think you have to have at least some respect for people willing to take their dedication that far.

    But regardless, the HoF is largely a joke anyways because it celebrates parts of the game and not others. Lofton as mentioned is a great example. If you hit 500 HRs you're basically guaranteed to get in but there's more to baseball than hitting HRs. There needs to be more players like Ozzie Smith in the HoF because there's multiple ways you can help your team win games.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beckdawg View Post
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    I don't see how amphetamines is silly. If players took them they felt it helped them. Whether or not it did and to the extent it may have shouldn't matter. It's getting an edge that you shouldn't have had. Even if it wasn't against the rules(not 100% on that), HGH wasn't in the rules until recently either. Are we disallowing any player who ever corked a bat? Are we disallowing any player caught using a foreign substance on a ball? Are we disallowing any players/teams caught stealing signs?

    Like it or not, the league never caught many of those players. If you want to note some where in the hall that players during that era did something uncouth fine. But let's not act like players in the hall of fame are all virtuous. In every era there are mean sons of bitches who would do anything to win whether you're talking about Ty Cobb or Barry Bonds. And while generally sports stars are meant to be seen as the height of sportsmanship, I think there's some dignity in a player willing to go to any means even risking their health to win. I wouldn't have taken HGH but I think you have to have at least some respect for people willing to take their dedication that far.

    But regardless, the HoF is largely a joke anyways because it celebrates parts of the game and not others. Lofton as mentioned is a great example. If you hit 500 HRs you're basically guaranteed to get in but there's more to baseball than hitting HRs. There needs to be more players like Ozzie Smith in the HoF because there's multiple ways you can help your team win games.
    See I don't think Ozzie Smith should have been voted into the HoF as I understand it if the point is to honor extraordinary achievement. By that criteria I'd say maybe 30 players belong in or roughly a couple of players per generation. More simply is the HoF an exclusive club for the very best players to ever play both as athletes and human beings or is the HoF for the fans and the history of the game? If the main purpose is the latter, as you seem to favor, than yeah not enough players are in. To me they are such totally different points of view that they should almost be two separate things. I totally understand Joe Morgan's sentiments (and I really agree with him on nothing else) that he and his brethren do not want to share a dais with cheaters. That's a natural response from guys in an exclusive club, but of course that supposes that the HoF is more like a fraternity for its members not a museum for the fans. Again it's impossible to reconcile these radically different interpretations.

    As far as the amphetamines go, they were handed out like candy with zero judgement attached to their use. They put them in the coffee pot for Pete's sake, it was hardly a secret. Steroids and HGH were quite different in that they weren't done openly because there was a stigma attached. Equating the two to me is apples and oranges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TC in Mississippi View Post
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    I totally understand Joe Morgan's sentiments (and I really agree with him on nothing else) that he and his brethren do not want to share a dais with cheaters.

    As far as the amphetamines go, they were handed out like candy with zero judgement attached to their use. They put them in the coffee pot for Pete's sake, it was hardly a secret. Steroids and HGH were quite different in that they weren't done openly because there was a stigma attached. Equating the two to me is apples and oranges.
    But my entire stance is he did share the dais with cheaters already. Whether it was spit balls, amphetamines, corked bats, betting on your own games(hello pete), he played with guys that did stuff that at the very least was gray area and more likely flat out wrong. I also don't agree with your assertion that HGH and steroids weren't done out in the open. That's just revisionist history. McGwire literally had andro in his locker. Canseco has talked about shooting players in the ass with steroids in a locker room. This belief that teams didn't know what was going on is bullshit. They didn't want to care. It's the same bullshit logic that lead a team like Atlanta to skirt the rules with IFA's when "everyone knew it was going on."

    None of this was a problem until the public knew. When the public found out about amphetamines it became an issue and was phased out of the game. Today there are players getting shot up with various things to keep them playing that will be illegal 25 years from now. It's not for their health. It's to keep them able to play. Now it's probably more of an issue in the NFL than in MLB given the physicality of the various games but that shit is happening.

    My biggest issue with shit like Morgan is that where were the players calling out the other players? You can say amphetamines were no big deal but that fucker wasn't calling out people for using them then and clearly they are enough of an issue that MLB banned them later. He's being sanctimonious in suggesting that everything was better "in his day." It wasn't. It never is. If HGH existed in 1970 every player would be just as likely to use it then as the players who did in the 2000's. It did exist in the 80's and guess what, basically every sport had people using them to get an edge. It's entirely plausible that there are baseball players from the 80's who are in the HoF who used steroids.

    So the way I see it Morgan has 2 options. You either close up shop on baseball for good because nothing is ever going to be as "pure" as it was or you just admit to yourself that what happens in any particular era of the game is just the way it is. And if he's unable to do that he should remember how not closing up shop kept him employed for years.

    I mean from my standpoint he might as well be saying "kids these days have no respect for my lawn!"

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    Moragn is an asshole. His criticisms of Ryne Sandberg while pumping himself up on National TV were shamefull
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    Quote Originally Posted by chibears55 View Post
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    They lost me after they waited til Ron Santo passed to vote him in

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    they changed the rules multiple times to get Ron in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by beckdawg View Post
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    In every era there are mean (people) who would do anything to win whether you're talking about Ty Cobb or Barry Bonds.
    FTR, myth
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    Quote Originally Posted by TC in Mississippi View Post
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    As far as the amphetamines go, they were handed out like candy with zero judgement attached to their use. They put them in the coffee pot for Pete's sake, it was hardly a secret. Steroids and HGH were quite different in that they weren't done openly because there was a stigma attached. Equating the two to me is apples and oranges.
    Uhm, HGH was done in the open. A reporter commented on it in McGwire's locker.
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    after they let Santo in, no doubt Chipper should get in. I cant see any of these guys first ballot though but the bar is on the ground now instead of high standards anymore. I remember when Andrue got pulled from a game by Bobby Cox for a lackadaisical catch and no hustle in an inning, so I cant see him ever getting in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
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    Uhm, HGH was done in the open. A reporter commented on it in McGwire's locker.
    I remembered that as being Andro but maybe I'm wrong. My understanding is that most of these players went into to bathroom stalls, etc. to inject and take most of these PEDs. Amphetamines were in the coffee pot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TC in Mississippi View Post
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    I remembered that as being Andro but maybe I'm wrong. My understanding is that most of these players went into to bathroom stalls, etc. to inject and take most of these PEDs. Amphetamines were in the coffee pot.
    I thought HGH and ANDRO were the same? I agree with Beckdawg, once the public knew, outcry came about
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
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    FTR, myth
    What parts a myth? I mean i have heard stories that basically there was some writer who hated him and made him out to be worse than he was(think it was on a radio lab podcast but not sure). But there's no doubting the dude slide spikes up into bases and went into the stands. Either way, even if Cobb was an angel that wasn't really my point. My point was there's always going to be assholes in the league that play up to and probably across the line.

    What bugs me is that baseball has literally from the beginning been a game about cheating. The old adage if you ain't cheatin you ain't tryin comes to mind. Whether it was stealing signs or altering the ball that stuff happened for decades prior to HGH. And then you have the fact that players prior to Jackie Robinson didn't play with blacks and players prior to the latin explosion didn't play with another large source of talent. I guess what i'm trying to say here is people who are against steroid users being in the hall seem to think that prior to them that everyone in the hall of fame was pure and that their numbers were "real." But you can easily dismantle that debate. I mean the whole reason 61 had an asterisk for such a long time was because it was playing in a different set of rules.

    At the end of the day, the game changes. So comparing players from the 2000's to players from the 70's or 50's is stupid. It's an entirely different game. If the hall of fame is a place about numbers and records(which let's be honest is how writers vote) then how the hell do you leave out the guys of their generation with the best numbers? If it's about people who made the sport interesting, how do you leave out the players that literally brought the game back from the dead after the strike? If it's about representing the best of baseball then why are players like Lofton never going to make it in?

    Really think the debate comes down to old players being jealous their numbers are eclipsed. But that's what happens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
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    I thought HGH and ANDRO were the same? I agree with Beckdawg, once the public knew, outcry came about
    Think andro is some form of testosterone and HGH is different. But in essence they both were banned at some point I believe. Pretty sure at the time you could get andro at GNC and places like that because it wasn't quite steroids but had similar effects. But pretty sure it's banned now. Either way like you said, if you just looked at the size of players you should know what is going on. I mean this was prior to the nerd revolution in baseball. So many of these scouts had been doing it for decades. If they didn't realize players were abnormally big then their naive.

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