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Thread: HOF 2018 Ballot

  1. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by beckdawg View Post
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    Think andro is some form of testosterone and HGH is different. But in essence they both were banned at some point I believe. Pretty sure at the time you could get andro at GNC and places like that because it wasn't quite steroids but had similar effects. But pretty sure it's banned now. Either way like you said, if you just looked at the size of players you should know what is going on. I mean this was prior to the nerd revolution in baseball. So many of these scouts had been doing it for decades. If they didn't realize players were abnormally big then their naive.
    I'm not sure when you think fans jumped on but I was screaming about Sammy Sosa to whoever would listen before the Sosa/McGwire HR race and I was ready to jump the Cubs ship right about then because some people were in denial. I hated Sosa with a passion. Terry Boers on the Score was condemning PED use as early as 1995 and Frank Thomas was an outspoken player about the need for testing. The story didn't just emerge one day, although I agree that most of the media was more enthralled by the numbers than the fact that these guys were damaging the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beckdawg View Post
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    What parts a myth? I mean i have heard stories that basically there was some writer who hated him and made him out to be worse than he was(think it was on a radio lab podcast but not sure). But there's no doubting the dude slide spikes up into bases and went into the stands. Either way, even if Cobb was an angel that wasn't really my point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by beckdawg View Post
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    At the end of the day, the game changes. So comparing players from the 2000's to players from the 70's or 50's is stupid. It's an entirely different game. If the hall of fame is a place about numbers and records(which let's be honest is how writers vote) then how the hell do you leave out the guys of their generation with the best numbers? If it's about people who made the sport interesting, how do you leave out the players that literally brought the game back from the dead after the strike? If it's about representing the best of baseball then why are players like Lofton never going to make it in?
    This right here. One of the best summations that I have read on the topic. Cheating is part of the game. So is punishment. Punishment by the LEAGUE, not the WRITERS.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TC in Mississippi View Post
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    I'm not sure when you think fans jumped on but I was screaming about Sammy Sosa to whoever would listen before the Sosa/McGwire HR race and I was ready to jump the Cubs ship right about then because some people were in denial. I hated Sosa with a passion. Terry Boers on the Score was condemning PED use as early as 1995 and Frank Thomas was an outspoken player about the need for testing. The story didn't just emerge one day, although I agree that most of the media was more enthralled by the numbers than the fact that these guys were damaging the game.
    I mean that's probably fair that there were some speaking out about it but not nearly enough. But again I think that sort of illustrates a point though that if you and some in the media were talking about it why wasn't MLB and the players? I don't know a lot of this is weird. It honestly feels like a lot of writers are now overreacting because they were fooled and feel cheated. I mean if you look at this from the player's perspective, no one at the time was coming out strong against it. And MLB wasn't saying anything. So, teams/mlb may as well have been saying this is how you get that big money contract you want.

    What drives me nuts is that after the fact they just burn those players that did what they had to do to make the money. To me I think the distinction to make is players who did it prior to testing and players caught after testing. If you wanna jump on Manny or Arod who got caught for doing it fine. But what irritates me is that writers are throwing a moral argument into a legality argument. Andro wasn't illegal at the time AFAIK. HGH AFAIK wasn't illegal. Morally is it questionable to use it? Sure. But it's also morally questionable to throw at a guys head and plenty of pitchers have done that. What matters is whether or not something was legal both in the US and in baseball. And like with Amphetamines was that morally questionable, in hindsight sure. Was it the culture of baseball at the time? Absolutely.

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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by beckdawg View Post
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    I mean that's probably fair that there were some speaking out about it but not nearly enough. But again I think that sort of illustrates a point though that if you and some in the media were talking about it why wasn't MLB and the players? I don't know a lot of this is weird. It honestly feels like a lot of writers are now overreacting because they were fooled and feel cheated. I mean if you look at this from the player's perspective, no one at the time was coming out strong against it. And MLB wasn't saying anything. So, teams/mlb may as well have been saying this is how you get that big money contract you want.

    What drives me nuts is that after the fact they just burn those players that did what they had to do to make the money. To me I think the distinction to make is players who did it prior to testing and players caught after testing. If you wanna jump on Manny or Arod who got caught for doing it fine. But what irritates me is that writers are throwing a moral argument into a legality argument. Andro wasn't illegal at the time AFAIK. HGH AFAIK wasn't illegal. Morally is it questionable to use it? Sure. But it's also morally questionable to throw at a guys head and plenty of pitchers have done that. What matters is whether or not something was legal both in the US and in baseball. And like with Amphetamines was that morally questionable, in hindsight sure. Was it the culture of baseball at the time? Absolutely.
    Honestly my biggest problem with it was the players that didn't use that were hurt. I had friends working in various aspects of the game at that time and they spoke of fringe players that didn't make rosters because 38 year olds were taking PEDs to stay in the bigs. By not making rosters these guys didn't get MLB pensions and we're not talking about millionaires here. Fred McGriff was a vocal critic of the PED culture and likely won't make teh HoF by the slimmest of margins. If PED users get in on a regular basis the message to McGriff is that "hey man, you should have used". I've grown too weary to really fight this battle anymore though. It's done, the game has moved on from the most blatant of the PED use (I don't think it can ever be completely eliminated) and I think MLB is better for it. I didn't used to think this but most people seem to think that the primary purpose of the HoF is as a museum and with that as the criteria I say let them all in. The history of the game contains the good bad and the ugly and it should all be represented. Just don't pretend that it's an exclusive fraternity anymore and maybe that was always just a romanticized notion anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TC in Mississippi View Post
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    Honestly my biggest problem with it was the players that didn't use that were hurt. I had friends working in various aspects of the game at that time and they spoke of fringe players that didn't make rosters because 38 year olds were taking PEDs to stay in the bigs. Fred McGriff was a vocal critic of the PED culture and likely won't make teh HoF by the slimmest of margins. If PED users get in on a regular basis the message to McGriff is that "hey man, you should have used". I've grown too weary to really fight this battle anymore though. It's done, the game has moved on from the most blatant of the PED use (I don't think it can ever be completely eliminated) and I think MLB is better for it. I didn't used to think this but most people seem to think that the primary purpose of the HoF is as a museum and with that as the criteria I say let them all in. The history of the game contains the good bad and the ugly and it should all be represented. Just don't pretend that it's an exclusive fraternity anymore and maybe that was always just a romanticized notion anyway.
    Obviously that's not an unreasonable feeling(re fringe guys) but to apply that logic, think of all the negro league players no one knows who we probably should. Even big names like Josh Gibson are often unknown to casual fans. And I guess to me that's often a case with success. People who are willing to do things that others aren't are usually the ones who get the biggest rewards but far to often suffer the worst as well. You hear the stories about guys who start a business out of their garage that becomes amazon but not the countless examples of people who failed. And with regard to HGH/Steroid users we still don't know what the long term effects are. These players may literally have cut years off their life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
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    Barry Bonds *Broke the rules with drugs, too bad, was a HOFer before drug use so No.
    Chris Carpenter *No
    Roger Clemens *Should be in, never found to take drugs
    Johnny Damon *Solid, but he's with Konerko on the outside looking in
    Vladimir Guerrero *100% in
    Livan Hernandez* No
    Trevor Hoffman* 100% in. Suffers because he was a Padre
    Orlando Hudson* My kids have his jersey...No
    Aubrey Huff* Awesome Twiiter, but no
    Jason Isringhausen* No
    Andruw Jones * Tough one. Played in a hitters friendly park. Does not pass the eye test for me. Konerko for me.
    Chipper Jones *Yes
    Jeff Kent *Yes, his numbers are as good or better than all other 2b men.
    Carlos Lee* No
    Brad Lidge* No
    Edgar Martinez* Konerko
    Hideki Matsui *No
    Fred McGriff* Yes, his numbers are there and he's been given credit to be all natural
    Kevin Millwood* No
    Jamie Moyer* Konerko
    Mike Mussina* Konerko
    Manny Ramirez *Multiple rule breaker with drugs, No
    Scott Rolen * Yes
    Johan Santana *Should he get the Koufax treatment? I'm on the fence.
    Curt Schilling * Yes
    Gary Sheffield * Yes, never found guilty of drugs, right?
    Sammy Sosa *Again never found guilty of drugs, YES
    Jim Thome *Yes
    Omar Vizquel *Tough one. I'm on the fence
    Billy Wagner* I said yes last year. I am still a yes
    Larry Walker * Yes, he benefitted from Coors, but played well elsewhere.
    Kerry Wood * No
    Carlos Zambrano * No

    That's 13. So since it was asked to be 10...I eliminate Sheffield, Wagner, Walker
    This is the worst ballot I have ever seen......What is this idiotic Konerko standard?

    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
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    Uhm, HGH was done in the open. A reporter commented on it in McGwire's locker.
    That was Andro..and they were not the same thing.

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    The tracker now has 15 ballots and early returns looks like this could be a record class.
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  12. #32
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    the record if THIS is a record class is how insignificant "nice" ball players are considered hall of famers.
    109 years since the last back to back world titles

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    Quote Originally Posted by anotheridiot View Post
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    the record if THIS is a record class is how insignificant "nice" ball players are considered hall of famers.
    Who would be your ballot?
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
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    Who would be your ballot?
    off of that list, maybe only Chipper Jones, just because they let Santo in. Schilling his his bloody sock in there, just the same as Sosa has his home run bat in there.
    109 years since the last back to back world titles

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    Quote Originally Posted by anotheridiot View Post
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    off of that list, maybe only Chipper Jones, just because they let Santo in. Schilling his his bloody sock in there, just the same as Sosa has his home run bat in there.
    So no to Bonds, Clemens, Thome, Vlad among others? So fo ryou the Hall should be an elite group of some 30-50 folks like TC, yes?
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    With 26 votes revealed, one player has gotten them all....Jim Thome. No doubt about his candidacy for me, but he's not an elite when compared to the others. I think him being arguably one of the nicest guys to ever play the game and his good will post career has helped him get such a high percentage.
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    Nice to see Jack Morris and Alan Trammell finally get selected for the Hall of Fame
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    39 ballots in and we have:
    Thome 97.4%
    Chipper 94.9%
    Vlad 89.7%
    Edgar 82.1%
    Hoffman 79.5%

    Mussina, Bonds, Clemens all over 65% but on the outside looking in right now.
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