IST: Brewers vs Cubs

SilenceS

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It’s who gets out. See 2006 Cardinals or the Giants 3 ships. It happens over and over again. The Cubs still have a perfect storm brewing with three of their top players coming back for the stretch run. Bryant already said he is def. coming back and feels no pain. Darvish looks to be back in track and Morrow will be back. That’s filthy to add to this club


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anotheridiot

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Javy to leadoff, Heyward, Bote, Rizzo, Almora, Schwarber, Willlllson, Hendricks, Addison on the first scoreboard lineup posted today.
 

brett05

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Diehardfan said:
I didn't like that trade from day one. I kept hearing things like TOR guy, under team control but that's not what I was seeing whenever I saw him with the Sox. Always seemed to be high in pitch counts, too many walks....didn't see the HR's though. That's something new he added. Built a name for himself by not getting run support....big deal. Cubs gave away their best bargaining chip to get this guy and that hurt this franchise.
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To get at the time a top 10-15 pitcher under control you have to pay. Sorry that this one so far has not worked out for ya. Perhaps not. :)
 

fatbeard

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Diehardfan said:
I didn't like that trade from day one. I kept hearing things like TOR guy, under team control but that's not what I was seeing whenever I saw him with the Sox. Always seemed to be high in pitch counts, too many walks....didn't see the HR's though. That's something new he added. Built a name for himself by not getting run support....big deal. Cubs gave away their best bargaining chip to get this guy and that hurt this franchise.
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His BB% was fine with the White Sox. It's his walks and HRs than have killed him since coming to the Cubs. K% is basically the same but his flyballs are turning into HRs at almost double the pace than when he put up his 5.1, 4.7, and 4.7 fWAR seasons. He was a legit top 10-15 pitcher.
 
CSF77

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brett05 said:
To get at the time a top 10-15 pitcher under control you have to pay. Sorry that this one so far has not worked out for ya. Perhaps not. :)
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Get real. He took a nose dive after Sale’s shadow moved. Some guys shine and others wilt in the light.
 
CSF77

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Even though Rizzo moved down and got a ding I’m not a fan of the move myself. Rizzo has been fine leading off.

I think the bigger issue is fixing 2-5 in the line up. Personally a fan of Almora, Heyward, Baez, Schwarber myself. When Zo is in he bats 2.
 
Diehardfan

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fatbeard said:
His BB% was fine with the White Sox. It's his walks and HRs than have killed him since coming to the Cubs. K% is basically the same but his flyballs are turning into HRs at almost double the pace than when he put up his 5.1, 4.7, and 4.7 fWAR seasons. He was a legit top 10-15 pitcher.
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Maybe not a completely fair assessment as not being a fan, I only saw a small sample size. But going by the games I saw...it was nibbling that lead to high pitch counts and walks which shortened many of his outings. Generally, not trusting his stuff. To reach the numbers you quoted, he must have done something somewhere...I just never saw it.
 
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Check out Schwarber, looks like he has put a lot of weight back on.
 
anotheridiot

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CSF77 said:
Even though Rizzo moved down and got a ding I’m not a fan of the move myself. Rizzo has been fine leading off.

I think the bigger issue is fixing 2-5 in the line up. Personally a fan of Almora, Heyward, Baez, Schwarber myself. When Zo is in he bats 2.
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His numbers are fine leading off, but the team is playing around .500 ball with him leading off.

Eventually, wins are more important than padding Rizzos stats.
 

fatbeard

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CSF77 said:
Get real. He took a nose dive after Sale’s shadow moved. Some guys shine and others wilt in the light.
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This is the penultimate awful Quintana take. Which pressure situations did he wilt in while playing for the dogshit 2017 White Sox, a 95 loss team? Name them.
 

brett05

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CSF77 said:
Get real. He took a nose dive after Sale’s shadow moved. Some guys shine and others wilt in the light.
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You'll not fine metrics that agree with you that he was not a top 10-15 pitcher. Sorry you're hurt.
 

Parade_Rain

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fatbeard said:
This is the penultimate awful Quintana take. Which pressure situations did he wilt in while playing for the dogshit 2017 White Sox, a 95 loss team? Name them.
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When did Sale get secretly signed by the Cubs? FYI, Quintana was with the Cubs half of 2017.
 

Parade_Rain

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brett05 said:
You'll not fine metrics that agree with you that he was not a top 10-15 pitcher. Sorry you're hurt.
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Lots of excuses for the 50-54 record with the Sux about lack of run support. 4.49 ERA in 2017 with WS. 3.74 ERA with Cubs. This year 4.46. FIP 4.85 this season, too. He has went backwards from 2017 on.
 
CSF77

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anotheridiot said:
His numbers are fine leading off, but the team is playing around .500 ball with him leading off.

Eventually, wins are more important than padding Rizzos stats.
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Not about padding. It is about him being a .400 OBA vs Baez at .330.

Math is hard

End of the day they need to be more dependent on Schwarber and Baez for the RBI’s. I’m down with Heyward batting 3 as he puts the ball in play more than not.

But it comes down to you want your best OBA hitter leading off.
 
CSF77

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Parade_Rain said:
Lots of excuses for the 50-54 record with the Sux about lack of run support. 4.49 ERA in 2017 with WS. 3.74 ERA with Cubs. This year 4.46. FIP 4.85 this season, too. He has went backwards from 2017 on.
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Pretty much what I was saying. 2016 with Sale he was sub 4.00 ERA in the AL. Then after Sale gets dealt and he was the ‘ace’ he nose dived. With the Cubs he went back to the high 3’s so that was an improvement.


But again: if you trade a top 10 prospect and a TOR arm and you don’t make that guy you opening day starter the next year you are doing it wrong.

I’m sorry I live some moves Hamels for basically nothing. That was genius. Trading for Arrieta and Strop for Feldman... again. But for every awaken move there is a bone head move.

If I had to rate it dialing for Chapman was smarter. You were getting a game changer and it paid off. Talent was close on both deals. But the return on one was a shut down arm vs a 2nd fiddle that didn’t prove his worth.

And Brett: he was on a decline going into the trade. Sure his track record was top 20 SP but IMO if you don’t establish your self as a staff leader you are a follower and you don’t break the bank in that.
 

fatbeard

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CSF77 said:
Pretty much what I was saying. 2016 with Sale he was sub 4.00 ERA in the AL. Then after Sale gets dealt and he was the ‘ace’ he nose dived. With the Cubs he went back to the high 3’s so that was an improvement.
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I'm still waiting for the part where his "nose dive" was the result of being psychologically weak and not some other reason, like physical or mechanical. Is his lack of mental toughness the reason why his flyballs are going out of the park at nearly twice his career rate? Your central point is a house of cards that lacks the tiniest shred of, you know, actual evidence.
 
CSF77

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fatbeard said:
I'm still waiting for the part where his "nose dive" was the result of being psychologically weak and not some other reason, like physical or mechanical. Is his lack of mental toughness the reason why his flyballs are going out of the park at nearly twice his career rate? Your central point is a house of cards that lacks the tiniest shred of, you know, actual evidence.
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Think the facts outweigh anything else. But sure it could be coincidental. But I don’t believe for a second in that. Now I have heard analysis on his fastball command being off. That goes back with the Sox. Yet again Theo had this info and still gave up the talent that gets back a legit ace.

Honestly it comes down to opening day. Lester is tour ace and they traded a ace deck for a #3 guy.

I really wish that Theo would take his own advise when trading for Cole more often. Pay for a track record. Add a quality piece and he has a deal that gained Sale. Just saying.
 

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They didn't trade for a #3 guy. They traded for a guy who'd pitched like a solid 2 if not better who had 3.5 years of control. I mean look at what pitt just gave up for archer who the past 3 years has a 4.02, a 4.07 and this year a 4.36 ERA.
 
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