Offseason rumors/discussion thread

CSF77

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This seems like an overly rosey picture to me. I got nothing against the sox personally. I'm not one of those cubs fans that has to hate the sox. But having said that I don't see anything resembling a sure fire no doubt building block. The 2018 white sox weren't the 2014 cubs as an example. The 2014 cubs won 73 games. The sox won 62.

Rodon, Lopez and Giolito come with prospect hype certainly but nothing in the numbers points to an imminent breakout. They may get there eventually but expecting it in the next two years to me would be setting yourself up for disappointment. As for Moncada, I think he's going to disappoint. This is a guy that had a 30.9% K rate in AA. And the K rate in the majors is going up year to year. Baez has some what proven me wrong this year so it's possible guys can transition but to be honest, I'm not expecting Baez to continue to be as good as he was in 2018. As for Eloy, keep in mind the cubs basically decided to trade him rather than Schwarber. Maybe Eloy doesn't have the same hiccups Schwarber has but that shows that even someone who lays waste to the minors can take time to develop into a premium player.

Personally, I think the sox are probably more like 3-4 years away. The difference between their rebuild and the cubs rebuild is the cubs got Rizzo as the rebuild started and by the time the young guys came up he was a star. They also got Strop and Arrieta in a steal of a deal and Fowler likewise. The cubs also made some shrewd signings like Hammel who they not only rode to wins but also used to get even more young talent.

For me personally to feel like the sox are close you'd have to see them adding infrastructure around these young guys the past few years and that doesn't really seem to be the case. They look like a team that was going to be crappy and knew it so they just tanked the season. I looked on ESPN's FA tracker for the past 2 years and they haven't even signed anyone above $5 mil.

They already have Aberu filling Rizzo’s role. Adding Manny gives them something that the Cubs didn’t have. Eloy has potential to be as good as Soriano. Mo is a Baez type IMO. He is talented but need maturing.

The biggest problem is vet presence in the rotation but rounding out a starting 5 is not a major issue. I would make Lopez my 1 then Rondon my 2. Shields decline then offer far less on a 1. If he accepts look at a lefty. Maybe Adam Engel for Montgomery strait. Just a toss out and not serious thought. Then round out with Googles.

That point they have 2 quality arms upwelling.
 

beckdawg

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They already have Aberu filling Rizzo’s role. Adding Manny gives them something that the Cubs didn’t have. Eloy has potential to be as good as Soriano. Mo is a Baez type IMO. He is talented but need maturing.

The biggest problem is vet presence in the rotation but rounding out a starting 5 is not a major issue. I would make Lopez my 1 then Rondon my 2. Shields decline then offer far less on a 1. If he accepts look at a lefty. Maybe Adam Engel for Montgomery strait. Just a toss out and not serious thought. Then round out with Googles.

That point they have 2 quality arms upwelling.

Abreu is 31. He's already making $13 mil a season. I'd hardly compare that to Rizzo who's on a much friendlier deal still. And even if he were comparable, just to get to .500 they need to add 19 wins. Machado isn't doing that. Why you think he would even consider going there I don't know. And all of this ignores the obvious elephant in the room. The sox don't spend that kind of money. Do you know how many players since 2006 have gotten more than $10 mil/year from them?

2010 - Konerko, Dunn
2014 - Melky Cabrera, Adam LaRoche, David Robertson

That's the entire list according to MLB's FA tracker. That's over 10 years of FA and those guys were just barely over $10 mil/year. They weren't $20 mi/year.
 

CSF77

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They were 2nd place to the Rangers on A-Rod. They have made offers but came up short.

They would have to over pay and the market would have to be off on mega deals. It happens Pads made a WTF last year that made no sense.
 

TC in Mississippi

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Abreu is 31. He's already making $13 mil a season. I'd hardly compare that to Rizzo who's on a much friendlier deal still. And even if he were comparable, just to get to .500 they need to add 19 wins. Machado isn't doing that. Why you think he would even consider going there I don't know. And all of this ignores the obvious elephant in the room. The sox don't spend that kind of money. Do you know how many players since 2006 have gotten more than $10 mil/year from them?

2010 - Konerko, Dunn
2014 - Melky Cabrera, Adam LaRoche, David Robertson

That's the entire list according to MLB's FA tracker. That's over 10 years of FA and those guys were just barely over $10 mil/year. They weren't $20 mi/year.

I've spent the last three years following the Braves and Phillies rebuilds closely. People were saying the same things about both teams just a year ago. I think when you're looking at teams like this the hardest thing to predict is when the breakthrough is going to happen. Atlanta broke through this year a year before anyone thought they'd be close. Philly collapsed late but still was better than some expected. You really don't know. If Moncada and Jimenez have big seasons it could be a huge boost for them and while I don't think they'll sign Machado either, I really only think only the Braves, Phillies, Yankees, Cubs and Dodgers can even come close to the money demands, I do think they'll be active in FA. Get a couple of nice pieces, maybe a pitcher like Dallas Keuchel and who knows what we're looking at. I just think we're past the stage where we can be cavalier about saying when rebuilds turn the corner because there are way to many human factors to consider.
 

fatbeard

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AJ Pollock would be interesting. The injury risk is real, but the upside is big.

 

beckdawg

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I've spent the last three years following the Braves and Phillies rebuilds closely. People were saying the same things about both teams just a year ago. I think when you're looking at teams like this the hardest thing to predict is when the breakthrough is going to happen. Atlanta broke through this year a year before anyone thought they'd be close. Philly collapsed late but still was better than some expected. You really don't know. If Moncada and Jimenez have big seasons it could be a huge boost for them and while I don't think they'll sign Machado either, I really only think only the Braves, Phillies, Yankees, Cubs and Dodgers can even come close to the money demands, I do think they'll be active in FA. Get a couple of nice pieces, maybe a pitcher like Dallas Keuchel and who knows what we're looking at. I just think we're past the stage where we can be cavalier about saying when rebuilds turn the corner because there are way to many human factors to consider.

The 2017 braves had a 4 win Freddie Freeman and a 2.9 win Ender Inciarte. No one on the Sox came even close to those two. The Braves also had a fair amount of fortune as Acuna, Johan Camargo and Albies all came up and had immediate impact not to mention Foltynewicz breaking out. They are an exception not the expectation.

You want to compare the sox to philly i'm ok with that but keep in mind philly finished 80-82. And I'd argue the 2017 phillies were in a better position than the 2018 sox having Nola mostly but Odubel Herrera and Cesar Hernadez were also good. But even then, I'd argue the phillies are probably 2 more years away unless they nail every signing. Going from 70 wins to 80 wins isn't *that* hard. But going from 80 wins to 90 wins is substantially harder because there's less room on the edges to get better and at some point you just have to have very good players.
 

brett05

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wait...finally white sox talk??? :crying:
 

TC in Mississippi

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wait...finally white sox talk??? :crying:

Just standing up for your boys a bit. Nobody knows what's going to happen but consensus on when teams will be ready to compete is often wrong. Watching rebuilds has become a hobby within a hobby for me and I enjoy it. Your team has done some good things, next is to see if they work. Both Joey Gallo and Byron Buxton were ranked as 70 grade prospects and #1 in MLB at one time, so there is that. It's all fun to watch play out though.
 

brett05

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Just standing up for your boys a bit. Nobody knows what's going to happen but consensus on when teams will be ready to compete is often wrong. Watching rebuilds has become a hobby within a hobby for me and I enjoy it. Your team has done some good things, next is to see if they work. Both Joey Gallo and Byron Buxton were ranked as 70 grade prospects and #1 in MLB at one time, so there is that. It's all fun to watch play out though.

Ya nailed it this year with the Phillies and the White Sox. I can opinion all I want, but you've been correct. :hi5:
 

CSF77

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Pretty sure the 2-3 year window is for Cease and the staff to gel. I really don’t. The most control they will have on Cease is 7 years. Even if they sit on him for 2 that is a 9 year window. Manny would be inline for 10. So they fall in the same window.

That is why I posted short term SP contracts. After 2 years you want to clear them. So some elder vets looking for a career ender would be my target or ex-starters trying to restablish themselves. IMO Montgomery would be a good value target for a back end lefty. 3 years of control.
 

fatbeard

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Eh, the way most people define "windows" is not really accurate. What they really mean is, "with the current pitchers in the starting rotation", which is not really the same thing. Rosters change every year and the Cubs have the financial wherewithal to simply buy more pitching when they need it. The Cubs' window is really tied to the age of their core position players, who are what Epstein & Hoyer intentionally built the team around, and those guys are all still in their mid-20's.

When people talk about the Cubs' window "closing" in 2-3 years, I just laugh a little. This team is going to be winning 90+ games for a decade.
 

anotheridiot

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so you think KB ever heard about the reported 200 million dollar offer from the cubs or did Boreass think it would reduce Harpers number if he took it?
 

anotheridiot

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Eh, the way most people define "windows" is not really accurate. What they really mean is, "with the current pitchers in the starting rotation", which is not really the same thing. Rosters change every year and the Cubs have the financial wherewithal to simply buy more pitching when they need it. The Cubs' window is really tied to the age of their core position players, who are what Epstein & Hoyer intentionally built the team around, and those guys are all still in their mid-20's.

When people talk about the Cubs' window "closing" in 2-3 years, I just laugh a little. This team is going to be winning 90+ games for a decade.

They are going to be playing 19 games a year against st louis, Pittsburg and Milwaukee. The pirates staff is getting really good, even cincinatti is improved. I guess they will need to go undefeated in interleague play and sweep the east or west.

The only reason that 90 will will the division is if everyone beats up on eachother.
 

fatbeard

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They are going to be playing 19 games a year against st louis, Pittsburg and Milwaukee. The pirates staff is getting really good, even cincinatti is improved. I guess they will need to go undefeated in interleague play and sweep the east or west.

The only reason that 90 will will the division is if everyone beats up on eachother.

You could try refuting the central point. Or not. You do you.
 

beckdawg

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Was thinking about the cubs payroll situation and they are closer to the $246 mil limit than I realized. I say limit in that it's pretty bad penalty wise if they go over that but that's not really why I'm making this post. I was basically trying to find some ways for the cubs to slash a little payroll to free them up for other moves. Smyly I personally like as a pitcher but if he's in your bullpen making $7 mil/year he's pretty damn expensive. And while he could work cheaply as a starter like that the cubs seemingly would prefer to bring back Hamels in some capacity but that may inhibit their ability to sign a Harper or Machado.

Long story short, I'm wondering if you could package Smyly with Chatwood to say Oakland. Now look I know Chatwood is pretty shitty. But keep in mind the team I'm talking about here. This is Oakland who doesn't have much money to spend. Oakland had 2 starters throw 100 innings this year. Edwin Jackson threw 96 innings for them. The same Edwin Jackson that was cubs trash a few years ago. Brett Anderson threw 80 innings for them. The same Anderson that was cubs trash last year. They aren't above other people's trash.

Smyly on the other hand at $7 mil for one year is a pretty great bargain. So, he would make up a decent bit for Chatwood being a net negative. Effectively you would get 2 starters for $19.5 mil and only be tied down for 1 year on smyly and 2 on chatwood. ~$10 mil in FA doesn't get you much in terms of starting pitching. For example last year Jaime Garcia got a 1 year $10 mil deal. And theoretically if you're the cubs you might even be able to buy that down a few million dollars if the return wasn't terrible. Similar logic would also likely apply to Tampa who had 1 starter throw 100 innings this year(snell) and who had Smyly before.

Anyways, if you could theoretically clear that and then sign Hamels to like a 2-3 year deal at $15 mil/year you'd be saving roughly $5 mil and freeing some roster space to address better bullpen arms.
 

brett05

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Eh, the way most people define "windows" is not really accurate. What they really mean is, "with the current pitchers in the starting rotation", which is not really the same thing. Rosters change every year and the Cubs have the financial wherewithal to simply buy more pitching when they need it. The Cubs' window is really tied to the age of their core position players, who are what Epstein & Hoyer intentionally built the team around, and those guys are all still in their mid-20's.

When people talk about the Cubs' window "closing" in 2-3 years, I just laugh a little. This team is going to be winning 90+ games for a decade.

I am not so sure. Do you think the Cubs are willing to go over the caps?
 

beckdawg

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I am not so sure. Do you think the Cubs are willing to go over the caps?

I know you're not asking me this but I feel like chiming in. I think it depends on what you mean by willing to go over the cap because that's a rather vague statement. In the strictest definition I have 0 doubt they are willing to go over the cap. they did it in 2016 if memory serves though only barely. The better question is how far are they willing to go over the cap? Personally I believe they wont go above $246 mil this year or $40 mil over the luxury tax in any given year. I don't believe any team will do that because the penalties are even more severe if you are that far over costing an additional 42.5% tax for one year over and 45% any further year plus you lose 10 spots on your top pick unless your top 6.

Another questions that is better is how long would they go over the cap? The normal luxury tax penalty starts at 20% goes to 30% year to and 50% year 3. I'm not 100% sure where i feel they fall on this. I sorta think they aren't going to just be the yankees and eat that penalty. I think they'd be smarter and stagger deals to give them a year off every once and a while. Realistically if you're smart about the deals you take I think large market teams can make one big ticket signing every other year. Most big deals are 6-7 years so by the third time doing this typically the first guy you sign to one of these deals is out.

With that being said, I think around the time Bryant and other start getting paid you're going to have to have a reset year or two to retool a bit. Simply put they have too many good players all going to hit FA within a short window. Some of them are going to have to go. But if you draft well and potentially deal the right guys for the right return before they hit FA I think you can sustain for quite awhile.

A lot of people don't like their farm system but personally i think that's a bit short sighted. They don't have any huge stars but they have a ridiculous amount of useful guys who probably are going to make it to the majors. And the thing people fail to take into account is some percentage of guys who make the majors are going to out play their tools. Just as an off the top of my head example, no one thought Jose Ramirez was going to be a top 10 player in baseball.

Their pitching is in a lot better place than their hitting. They really had quality arms from A-AA this year at every spot in a rotation. Most of it is guys who will fall some where between Alec Mills and Kyle Hendricks rather than true top of the rotation types but they do have a number of guys who were below A ball with real talent. Albertos lost his command totally but the stuff was still there. That's what is crazy about his season because he had 38 k's in 30.1 innings which is a 11.28 k/9. Problem was he had an ungodly 65 walks in those same innings for a 19.28 bb/9. While that is clearly troubling to an extent it's easy to forget he's still 19 and doesn't turn 20 until next month. Marquez could be a top of the rotation type arm if everything pans out. And Richard Gallardo who they just signed as an IFA is really interesting.

As for their bats, I don't see much more than bench players out of AA/AAA unless Eddy Martinez breaks out and I'm not holding my breath there. They got some potential starters in A/A+ though most aren't likely stars. It's really Miguel Amaya, Aramis Ademan, Brennen Davis, Cole Roederer, Nelson Velazquez and some of the other 2015 IFA signing class your looking at as being the next window. Davis and Roderer if they put it together can be stars. Amaya is a really interesting C prospect. Ademan doesn't necessarily strike me as a star but could be a solid regular. Velazquez I need to see more on but the guy has big power and interesting tools.
 

TC in Mississippi

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I am not so sure. Do you think the Cubs are willing to go over the caps?

Yes. Theo has said as much if you read between the lines. Beckdawg is right though the question is how many years will they go over and by how much. The new standard among teams with this issue seems to be go over for a few years and then reset the clock. MLB is already talking about getting that "loophole" removed in the next CBA but good luck with that. The MLBPA has been screwed in negotiations for the last three CBA and are not likely to allow something that benefits their top stars to simply vanish. They've got the wrong leader for that fight right now but that's a different discussion. I definitely think the the Cubs exceed the CBT this coming year, probably 2020 as well then they'll have hard decisions to make. Money is not the issue, it's when the IFP pool and draft picks are affected in the year following going over the CBT and the year after that respectively.
 

brett05

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Yes. Theo has said as much if you read between the lines. Beckdawg is right though the question is how many years will they go over and by how much. The new standard among teams with this issue seems to be go over for a few years and then reset the clock. MLB is already talking about getting that "loophole" removed in the next CBA but good luck with that. The MLBPA has been screwed in negotiations for the last three CBA and are not likely to allow something that benefits their top stars to simply vanish. They've got the wrong leader for that fight right now but that's a different discussion. I definitely think the the Cubs exceed the CBT this coming year, probably 2020 as well then they'll have hard decisions to make. Money is not the issue, it's when the IFP pool and draft picks are affected in the year following going over the CBT and the year after that respectively.

For me I am not so sure. They've passed to date on doing so. They'll almost have to if they are going the FA route for pitching and their young stars approaching "real money" status rapidly.
 

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